---

Terrorism Bill

My Lords, on some occasions there is nothing so powerful as an example. This is a good occasion briefly to bring such an example to the attention of the House. In the course of the passing of the Terrorism Act 2000, provision was made for setting out a list of proscribed organisations, and then to add to it or—in certain circumstances, rarely met—to take a proscribed organisation off the list. In March 2001, an organisation rather amazingly known as Hamas-Izz al Din al-Quassem Brigades was added to that list; we know it as Hamas. It came in two forms. One was a military and terrorist organisation, which will be familiar to those who follow the affairs of the Middle East. The other was a charitable organisation which, among other things, provided welfare, hospitals and medical attention to the people of Palestine. Both those parts of the organisation are on the proscribed list. My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford has pointed out that if somebody wildly enthusiastic about the electoral success of Hamas in the past few days were to appear outside the Houses of Parliament wearing a T-shirt saying ““Victory to Hamas””, she would be liable to a two-year sentence. If she appeared and shouted the words ““Victory to Hamas”” within one kilometre of the Houses of Parliament, she would have committed an offence which could, in turn, lead to considerable imprisonment. I mention that because we are all aware in this House that we are literally on the edge of an extremely difficult political decision on what one does about a terrorist organisation that decides to cease to be—which Hamas has not yet done but may do at any moment—a terrorist organisation and which abjures violence for the pursuit of electoral victory. We are familiar with this because of the endless drawn-out process under which the IRA has slowly moved from being a terrorist organisation to being part of the political process—and it has been something of a nightmare to decide at what point that organisation changed from one to the other. It is not, however, any longer an academic matter, apart from Northern Ireland. It is an all too present matter and one which means that it would be difficult under this law and its associated laws for British citizens to talk to representatives of Hamas and to do so without any risk of being possibly regarded as supportive of a terrorist organisation. I believe that my noble friend’s amendment helps to some extent. It does not of course cross the huge question of how we legislate for that change to be made. If we are bent on the concept that we want to see democracy extended to more and more parts of the world, that will involve necessarily more and more so-called terrorist or, if you like, freedom-fighter organisations having to choose to become constitutional and democratic. So far none of our legislation gives us any indication of how that can be done. My purpose in rising to support my noble friend is to hope that the House will support his amendment, modest through it is, and to give the Government an opportunity, if the Minister wishes to take it, to say how they intend to tackle this extraordinarily difficult problem.