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Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I agree with the views that have been expressed about the abuse of the former sus laws and that it would be extremely undesirable if Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 was abused, misused or used in a totally inappropriate circumstances. I cannot comment on the account given by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, of what happened to his son. It may not have been a reasonable use of powers under Section 44. However, we have to examine what the powers are there for. I have not had the opportunity of looking in detail at the comments that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, quoted from my right honourable friend Jack Straw. In that context I do not know whether he was introducing just this section or a wider part of the Bill, but my understanding of Section 44 has been that it is used under a range of different circumstances. It may be used in relation to a particular location, where there is a specific concern. I would like to pose a question to your Lordships’ House. If, for example, there was intelligence suggesting that a particular site was in danger and by taking action in response the source of that intelligence would be compromised, I think that publicity would not be helpful and that highlighting a particular location and therefore potentially the source of the intelligence would be a mistake. Similarly, if a counter-terrorist operation was under way in a particular area—for example, a surveillance operation involving a number of properties—it might be a proper use of Section 44 for the police to be stopping either at random or virtually everyone in the surrounding area. However, because it was a continuing operation, it would not be in the interests of that operation to publicise the fact that the operation was in process. There needs to be very careful thought on this amendment. In the context that we are talking about, I certainly do not see that publicity will ever be helpful. It is also important that there is the opportunity—I know that the police authority of which I am a member takes this very seriously—to monitor closely the use of these powers, the way in which it happens, the circumstances and the statistics that are available. But there should also be the opportunity to get underneath that in order to know what guidance is being given to individual police officers on how they should use Section 44 powers when an authorisation is in force and to understand what happens when a police officer uses the power. One very clear message relating to the problems arising from stop and search in other contexts is that the way in which the stop takes place causes the most offence—whether people are treated individually with respect or whether they are given any reason. I do not know the precise details of the example given by the noble Lord. But a lot of hurt, irritation and subsequent anger is mitigated if individuals are treated with respect and an explanation is given which at least they can understand. They would be able to say, ““Yes, clearly, I am not who you are looking for”” or ““I am not the sort of person you are looking for””. It should be done in a way where that explanation is given. While I understand the nervousness about the Section 44 powers, we need to be very cautious about the amendment. It will impede counter-terrorist activity in a number of circumstances. It would be dangerous to pursue the lines that have been set out. I hope that after the Minister’s reply the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment. Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, made much of the growth in the stop and search figures. But Section 44 of the Terrorism Act was part of the Terrorism Act which was passed in 2000. It was prior to the events of September 11 in New York and Washington and, of course, long prior to the events of last July. I do not find it surprising that the number of stops that have taken place under the terms of the Terrorism Act have increased sharply since the initial period after the introduction of the Act.