---

Armed Forces Bill

moved Amendment No. 24: Page 5, line 12, at beginning insert ““legal”” The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 24, I will be particularly interested in the debate on Amendment No. 25, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, which in some ways is related to the same ground. I indicated my concerns about the matters covered in this amendment at Second Reading. The Minister, who has been most responsive and helpful in taking up points made at Second Reading and elsewhere, did not at that stage apparently feel able to comment on this point. It will therefore provide an opportunity for him to say a bit about the matters under consideration. Having served in the Armed Forces, albeit a long time ago, and been a Defence Minister, I am well aware of the gravity of desertion. It is a very serious offence, which can place lives in jeopardy and undermine an operation. Particularly in these days of highly developed technology, the absence of a key person at a particular time could be of critical significance. I have no argument whatever about spelling out the gravity of the offence of desertion in the Bill. I believe that if one recognises the gravity of desertion, it is therefore important to have severe penalties. We can argue about what those penalties should be when we have an opportunity to look at that a little later in our deliberations, but there should be a severe penalty. My amendment simply proposes that, if the offence is grave and the punishment severe, it should be clear beyond doubt that whatever the service man or woman is being asked to do is proper and lawful. I suspect that my noble friend will say, ““What on earth is the point in putting in the word ‘legal’ because, by definition, anything that a serviceman will be asked to do by our Government would be legal?””. Of course, that argument can be turned on its head: if anything that anyone may be asked to do is obviously legal, it would be quite harmless to put the word ““legal”” in the text just to underline the point. We live in an age of volunteer services. People join the services of volition. Once they have done so, they have agreed by definition to do anything required of them by the Government. It is therefore more important than ever to underline the significance which we, in making the law, attribute to this form of service and that we are absolutely determined that no one providing this form of service should be put in any kind of difficulty or legal risk. We heard earlier of the importance and significance of the Attorney-General. It has been argued that once the Attorney-General has given his advice to the Government, we all gather round and endeavour to make a success of the Government’s decision to undertake an operation, if that is their decision in the light of what the Attorney-General has said. Of course there is a difficulty here because the only people who know what the Attorney-General said are the Government, and they decide whether we are going to go into action. Members of this House do not know, the other place does not know, servicemen do not know and the general public does not know. It is therefore important to underline the significance of what is being done and to ensure that in the preparations for action, the seriousness of the legal provision is right at the top of the agenda. It would be quite wrong ever again to be placed in a situation—I do not suggest that this is a fair analysis, but it has been much discussed—where a Government undertaking a serious military operation appear to grapple to find a legal justification for doing so because so many questions are being asked about the legality of the plans. That is a most unsatisfactory situation and I believe it put service men at all levels under a good deal of pressure. Many of them were concerned. I do not remember a time when there was so much concern in the services about the doubts, and of course I am referring to the action in Iraq. However, times have moved on and no one could argue that anything the Armed Forces are being asked to do now is in any way beyond the law. That is because, for example, the United Nations Security Council has quite specifically endorsed the action being taken at this point. But there were arguments at an earlier stage. For all those reasons, and because of recent experience, this is a good opportunity to underline for all to see that in preparing for military action, legality is of the utmost importance, and that it is put into the Bill. I was startled when I read Clause 8 because it seems that actions or operations against an enemy are fairly clear cut: operations outside the British Isles for the protection of life and property are utterly commendable; but then, suddenly and baldly, with no qualification and no detailed explanation, are the words, "““military occupation of a foreign country or territory””." If desertion is grave and the penalties are to be severe, we owe it to our service men to underline that, in this context as well as any other, anything they are asked to do will be beyond any doubt lawful and legal. I beg to move.