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Armed Forces Bill

I have difficulty with Amendments Nos. 24 and 25, because I have difficulty following the logic of what is being said. The amendments seem to have been proposed because of a situation that arose in Iraq. To listen to some of the contributions, one would have thought that a decision was taken in isolation and that we had no debates in here or any debates or votes in the other place, both of which are patently incorrect. I have difficulty with these amendments because by placing in the hands of a deserter the defence that they believed sincerely that the operation they were involved in was not legal—and I think we are all agreed just how dangerous that can be within the services—when that defence is used at a court martial, we are actually asking the court martial to decide whether the operation was legal. Frankly, I do not think that is the authority of a court martial. If our objection is that there was no formal parliamentary decision to go into Iraq, in this case, and that is not sufficiently democratic, how can we then give a court martial tribunal the authority to say, ““Your defence is sound. This was not a legal action””? I have never been a serviceperson myself, but I have a lot to do with the Armed Forces of all three services, and I think this is an invitation to break down discipline, not to support it. On Amendment No. 26, I am very unhappy about the retention of life sentences for desertion. I referred to this at Second Reading, after which the Minister gave me some statistics. On the one hand they helped, because I thought, ““This is not a dangerous clause because it’s not used, and if it is used, it’s used responsibly””. On the other hand, however, if it is used so little, why do we need it? I feel strongly about this. We are talking about the whole area of discipline. Clause 11, ““Misconduct towards a superior officer””, including violence towards that officer—an extreme example of discipline breaking down—provides a maximum sentence of 10 years. Clause 12, ““Disobedience to lawful commands””, also provides a 10-year maximum sentence. We are talking about proportionality, and it is not proportionate to issue a life sentence for desertion. I am extremely pleased that the Bill separates out absence without permission and straightforward desertion, because people could have been caught if it had been left as it was, but I would like to hear what the Minister has to say about the retention of life sentences for desertion. I support Amendment No. 26 from the noble Lord, Lord Garden.