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Further Education and Training Bill [HL]

I, too, want to speak to Amendment No. 43, relating to Clause 17(6). I shall not repeat the eloquent words of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, as he has made a strong case. However, I want to make one comment and ask two or three questions. My first question has implicitly been answered by the noble Lord’s remarks. I was going to give the benefit of the doubt and ask whether the intention was that the provision could apply to any member of staff or simply to a principal. They are in different situations. The one comment that I have to make that might encourage the Minister to move away from this fairly draconian clause is that I have seen heads of institutions moved on the basis of questions raised by funding councils and investigations set in place by them without this specific power having to be invoked. I refer to the university sector. It can be done and has been done—and I could give examples of that. The power to do what is sometimes sadly necessary is perhaps already there in the system, if what happens in higher education could be adapted in statute for further education. My questions bear on the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about the identity of the employer. An employer-employee relationship is a contractual one; if I am an employee, I am contracted to do X, Y and Z by my employer. But it would seem that that relationship has been questioned here, so there is a real question of who the employer is under law. Until that is resolved, this statute will cause all sorts of difficulties. Dismissing people in higher education is not easy, which is perhaps a pity in some cases—but I have been through the process and done it, and it almost always ends up with an employment tribunal. If the tribunal is made up in the way that they are made up today, one of the first questions that it will ask is against whom the case has been brought. That is a legal question that requires an answer before we proceed down this line; is it being brought against the funding council or the employer—apparently, the institution? That would apply equally to principals. I would much prefer an alternative route to, in the extreme situation, moving principals out; but we need an answer to the question where the case would be put when, inevitably, it comes to an employment tribunal.