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Counter-Terrorism Bill

I want to focus on new clause 20 and amendment (a). Like many Members, I was a teenager in the 1970s. I was thoroughly aware—as we all were—of the terrible events involving the IRA in Northern Ireland, and, of course, the appalling miscarriages of justice suffered by the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four. Similarly, like so many others here, at the time of both 7/7 and 9/11 I had friends and associates in the eye of the storm. Those experiences, and the history of legislation generally, have convinced me that we must do our best not to legislate in hot blood, and not to make hasty decisions in particular circumstances. I do not mean in anything that I say today to decry anyone's commitment to security or liberties, or to be soft on terror. This is not some macho or self-righteous exercise. Equally, however, I do not want the Bill to become a victim of mission creep, as has happened in other contexts recently. Two or three years ago, for instance, we passed legislation relating to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 which, in my view, is potentially going down that road. That is why I want to concentrate on new clause 20. It is because we prize liberty so much that the nature and scale of the threat, and the triggers to it, are so important. They are important not merely to the making of a case to convince us here today or the House of Lords tomorrow, but because they must convince, and appear appropriate to, the broader communities in the country—not just ethnic communities, but others—who must be kept on board in any democracy and in any legislation that we pass. Public scepticism about politics and politicians will always be prevalent, and is arguably more prevalent now than for many years. That is why we need to go the extra mile to convince people, and to spell out why the Government want this reserve power. Ideally, I should like to hear more details from Ministers about the links between what might happen here in the United Kingdom and what might happen overseas. There has been some reference to that this afternoon, but I want to hear more. As for the broader issue of the sort of incident that would cause the reserve power to kick in, the Home Secretary has given a number of further details, both in response to an interesting and useful intervention from the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) and in the letter to the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Let me return to one of the central questions that have danced around today's debate: the question of whether we as parliamentarians would have a role, or a right to take a view, were the reserve power to kick in. I heard what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore); I have also spent some time trying to follow the twists and turns of the various reports from the Joint Committee and the most recent letter that he has received from the Home Secretary. I agree with him that our discussion has featured many red herrings, many misleading comparisons between inappropriate jurisdictions, and the bandying of many not very robust and, frankly, intellectually dishonest arguments by Members on both sides of the debate. However, I must say, with all respect to my hon. Friend and his Committee's report, that just as I do not want the Bill to lead to mission creep, I do not want to see it result in judicial creep. One of the issues that we must address this afternoon is the oxygen of publicity, and how it will affect any reserve powers given to the House. I am not a lawyer, but I am an historian, and I know something—although perhaps not as much as I should—about the doctrine of the separation of powers. I am rather mystified by the blithe assumption made by several hon. Members that we have a great doctrine of the separation of powers in this country. We certainly do not have it as it exists in the US. There is an enormous inconsistency in this matter, especially among some Opposition Members. They often complain that Parliament does not have a strong enough role in legislation, but when we are given a stronger role, they seem unwilling to take it up. It is not a question of excluding judges and lawyers—indeed, we have been given chapter and verse today about how they will have a role in the process—but I do not believe that they should be in the driving seat on this issue.