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Counter-Terrorism Bill

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. Later, I shall say that in my view these proposals are within the European Convention on Human Rights. I welcome his intervention. The next argument that I disqualify—and there is a shameful advertisement by Liberty in today's Guardian—is that we propose a situation far worse than that in the United States, France and other comparable countries. Does anyone in this House really believe that charging someone with association de malfaiteurs is an adequate basis for keeping people in custody for a year and longer? I do not. Does anyone in this House believe that the French system of arresting people, not informing their lawyers and interviewing them without a tape recording is a proper basis for interrogation? A leading French juge d’instruction smiled when he described it to me as—I will not attempt to imitate his accent—““a very productive period of interrogation, monsieur””. As for the United States of America, the noble Lord, Lord Dear—I say this to him with great respect—misrepresented the position in a country in which at least one citizen has been deprived of his citizenship rights and has been kept in custody for years, and where executive witness detention—not executive defendant detention—can keep people in custody for up to a year at a time. Let us make fair comparisons. I am always willing to meet fair comparisons, but not the traducing comparisons that we sometimes see. I have also heard it said that those of us who broadly support this proposal are proposing internment. I wrote a report on the definition of terrorism and studied every terrorism law in the known world. I have looked at the history of internment over the past 70 years. Perhaps I can simply dispose of that argument by saying that I hope that everyone in this House, including those who have looked at the most recent record of internment in this country, shares Churchill's description of internment as, "““in the highest degree odious””." I shall now explain why, with one significant misgiving, I support the proposal that we are debating. I have five main reasons. The first is the range and complexity of the risk that we face, which is changing all the time. The risks of violent jihadist terrorism that we face now come from many places and countries. Some are domestic and home grown. Terrorism of that kind threatens places of mass public aggregation in this country—for example, the safety of our children as they get on the bus to go to school in central London, or young people around the country who gather in, if your Lordships will forgive the old-fashioned expression, a dance hall to enjoy themselves. However, the risk of terrorism is now potentially far more pervasive. Terrorism potentially involving al-Qaeda supporters now spreads anywhere in the world. It includes, for example, a significant threat—noble Lords should listen carefully to this because it is true—to humanitarian efforts in what is sometimes called the ““deep field””. Aid and development are seen as support for apostate regimes, hence the attack of 11 December 2007 on the United Nations headquarters in Algiers. All this is planned in an extremely complex international network, part of which is likely to be in this country and will be very difficult to unravel. The manifestations of terrorism around the world now include piracy in the Horn of Africa—on which the French Government have been rather firmer than the United Kingdom Government—and franchised al-Qaeda activities, as they are sometimes called, in north Africa, with global planning connections. It is now clear that most al-Qaeda networks have some element of contact between them. The word ““unravelling”” is entirely apposite to the kind of evidence that the authorities may have to deal with after arrest. In addition it has to be said, recognising what is happening in Pakistan, that the less than stable new Government of Pakistan are thought by many experts to represent an increased and significant security threat not just in Pakistan but to Europe and to its citizens in their own countries. The final point about risk is serious; it is about regeneration. There is evidence, which I think that those who are expert in the field and fully up to date will recognise, that some networks have regenerated themselves repeatedly after disruption. It is important to be able to penetrate the evidence about such networks in order to prevent regeneration. I turn next to evidential challenge. We have already heard something in this debate about computers, and a noble Lord opposite helpfully intervened to point out how complex these cases can be. As has already been said, the risks of which I have spoken are posed by determined and often clever people. Al-Qaeda will be listening to every word of this debate to see how much quarter is given by this Parliament. It is sometimes thought that its ideas cross the world at high speed, and they do. But the problem is that its ideas cross the world not only at very high speed but at very slow speed, too—on foot, on ships, on planes. It is difficult for the authorities to bring together those strands of plotting that put the public at risk. It is, as has been said, highly trained in counter-intelligence, and it is learning all the time. It would be unwise in a debate such as this one to describe what it knows or to speculate what it does not know, but it does not require much imagination. One problem with an evidential challenge is that its desire to succeed is driven by a religious imperative, albeit a heretical one, in which reason can disappear into the long grass. As has been said, making the linkages of evidence can be painstaking. We need to have appropriate and fair means to avoid releasing prematurely those who are determined to regenerate their activity and who will set out to achieve their ends come what may. Without going into detail, there really is evidence of that. The potential for damage can be stated in a few words: deaths between the tens and the thousands, with the numbers likely to be increased by suicide bombing. The authorities in this country have been fantastically successful in disrupting this activity. Putting it at its lowest, many hundreds of lives have been saved by them through such disruptions. The maximum of an extra 12 days, controlled as it would be, could in my view assist those disruptions. The enduring integrity of the law is very important to me. The one thing I dread is a horrendous event in which an airplane or a huge bomb is driven into a crowd of thousands, resulting in a huge number of deaths. We can imagine the headlines the following day. We can imagine the understandable reaction in the elected House. There would also be a very strong reaction in this House, although it would undoubtedly be more measured. I want to see an end to the constant introduction of new counterterrorism law. I want us to have a counterterrorism law that we can consolidate, and I mean consolidate formally if at all possible—a codified, robust counterterrorism law which is good enough to endure, and which would endure a massive atrocity. If, heaven help us, such an atrocity takes place, I want to be able to stand up as independent reviewer and say to the Minister, as he faces pressure from his own Back-Benches in both Houses, ““We need no more because we’ve done the job already””. We have heard it said that we are talking about the thin end of the wedge, but I see no such argument here. I see finality in the law of detention with appropriate protection from the judges. I say to my noble friend Lord Lester that one needs only to look at what the judges have done in relation to counterterrorism law to see the level of protection that they give. I spend a lot of time talking to officials in the Home Office and a few judicial names trip off their tongues on a daily basis, knowing that they face being tested on that daily basis by those judges. I cite as an example a case at first instance, not an appellate case, R (I) v City of Westminster Magistrates’ Court and the Chief Constable of Manchester Police, decided on 28 August this year by Mr Justice Collins, as one of many examples of the courts being robust in testing the law, but saying that it complies with the European Convention on Human Rights. I believe there is no real evidence that it does not comply with the European Convention. We should also bear in mind that we have been here before. The noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, chaired a committee of Privy Counsellors some years ago. I apologise for taking so much of the Committee’s time, but I feel that I should speak once. The Newton committee spoke of giving the judges more inquisitorial power. That is exactly what we have done. As regards proportionality, how many people are these new proposals likely to affect adversely? Let us assume that the overall effect is adverse in terms of keeping people in custody. I believe that these laws might affect a maximum of five or six people in the next four or five years. This is not the end of civil liberties as we know them. They could save many lives at home and abroad, including those of people in the humanitarian camps which the United Nations and other bodies maintain abroad. I believe, in fact, that these laws could have the effect of reducing the detention periods of some people. It is undoubtedly the case that judicial rigour would be strengthened as a result of these enactments, and I would expect the judges, in an increasingly inquisitorial role, to keep detention to a minimum. I turn finally to my misgivings. I have real misgivings about the parliamentary role as set out in the Bill. I do not believe that the parliamentary part of this adds anything useful whatever to the provisions. It does not make them better; it does not make them worse; it does not make them safer and it does not make them less safe. They are a fig leaf. In my view, nothing would be lost if it simply disappeared from the Bill.