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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 13 October 2008, in the House of Lords, led by Lord West of Spithead. The answering member was Lord Dear.

Counter-Terrorism Bill

Counter-Terrorism Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. New clause (Lords amendment no 29) debated and agreed to on division (309 votes to 118). Clauses 22 to 33 negatived. Schedule 2 negatived. New clause (Lords amendment no 34) debated and withdrawn.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
704 c491-545 
Session
2007-08
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
Government defeats
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Terrorism Act 2000
Thursday, 20 July 2000
Public acts
Proceeding contributions
Lord Brett | 704 c526 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend Lord Morris has been seeking your Lordships’ attention for a long time.
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 704 c526-7 (Link to this contribution) For any substantial change in our fundamental rights, we should endeavour to find a consensus. I hav...
Show all contributions (158)
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 704 c527-8 (Link to this contribution) Four ex-law officers who actually have been in charge of prosecutions in this country, and who have ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 704 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the opportunity to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris. He could n...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 704 c529 (Link to this contribution) Why was that not argued previously in relation to 28 days? Is it not germane? What the noble and lea...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 704 c529 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right, of course—it is relevant to 28 days. I entirely agree with the noble and le...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 704 c529-30 (Link to this contribution) I listened with the greatest of interest to the intervention of my noble and learned friend Lord Fal...
Lord Brett | 704 c588 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 704 c586-7 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the Minister’s reply on Amendment No. 35 with some interest. I make it clear that...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c586 (Link to this contribution) Then I think that we are probably on the same wavelength. I will take the amendment away and look at...
Baroness Stern | 704 c588 (Link to this contribution) I thank everyone who has spoken to these amendments. I very much appreciate the well informed suppor...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c587-8 (Link to this contribution) I hope I may make a couple of points that are pleasant for the Minister to hear. First, I pay tribut...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c585 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has rightly stressed again today the independence of the judiciary, the value of the ju...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c585 (Link to this contribution) All I can say to the noble Earl is that the police considered that making bail available to terroris...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c586 (Link to this contribution) Those of us on the JCHR are just as concerned. Nobody is saying that anybody whom anybody thinks is ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c585 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the noble Lord’s point. The necessary requirement test in paragraph 32 of ...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c579 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister please inform the Home Secretary that that is his view, with which I completely co...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c578 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I have never given the impression that I have had any view in this House other than that...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c579-80 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness should not assume that I automatically meant her party. Something I have come acr...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c579 (Link to this contribution) While I appreciate that the Minister usually expresses very positive sentiments, he said something w...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c580 (Link to this contribution) It is not fully adversarial in the sense of a full court of law where the suspect has been charged; ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c580 (Link to this contribution) The detainee is made aware that he is there on suspicion of terrorism, but he is not given such info...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c580 (Link to this contribution) This is a matter of natural justice. We are not concerned whether there is a full court of law, but ...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 704 c578 (Link to this contribution) On the basis of some experience in Northern Ireland, I support the suggestion made by the noble and ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 704 c578 (Link to this contribution) First, I share some of the sentiments that have just been expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Lester ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c581 (Link to this contribution) The police have to tell the suspect the basis of the reasonable suspicion—in other words, for terror...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c581 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister also look into how you can cross-examine effectively if you do not know the basis ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 704 c581 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but is he aware that the Crown Prosecution Service view ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c581 (Link to this contribution) I do not know the full details of that case but, as I said earlier, I am wary of making comparisons,...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c585 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says that there is a risk to public safety involved in giving bail to terrorist suspect...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c582-5 (Link to this contribution) Enough data are available for the judge to ensure that proceedings are fair, which will normally all...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c581-2 (Link to this contribution) The JCHR heard evidence—I am trying to recall it and I think that I am right—from defence solicitors...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 704 c581 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord aware that, in the Italian case to which he referred in our previous discussion, t...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) I will not go on, but I am not talking about details. The amendment refers to, "““the gist of the ma...
Baroness Hayman | 704 c545 (Link to this contribution) I cannot call Amendment No. 31 because of pre-emption. [Amendment No. 31 not moved.] Clause 23 neg...
Lord Dear | 704 c541 (Link to this contribution) That is the case. We are talking about the difference between being held in custody—it is no good th...
Lord Dear | 704 c541 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way. The difference is obvious. In this hypothetical case of possession of expl...
Baroness Hayman | 704 c544 (Link to this contribution) I cannot call Amendment No. 30 because of pre-emption. [Amendment No. 30 not moved.] Clause 22 neg...
Lord Ahmed | 704 c539 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister indicate the survey and which Muslim communities were consulted on the pre-trial p...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c540 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that people had said, ““Gosh, we support 42 days””. I said that we saw no evidence to ...
Lord Dear | 704 c540 (Link to this contribution) I shall take no more than two minutes of your Lordships’ time. We are already approaching 11 hours o...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 704 c540-1 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord for interrupting at this late stage. He suggested that people should b...
Lord Dubs | 704 c578 (Link to this contribution) There are more important things to discuss tonight than that, but I cannot understand why the noble ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 704 c573-4 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 31A: 31A: Schedule 2, page 75, line 28, le...
Lord Dubs | 704 c578 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Mandelson has not made his maiden speech—he was introduced to the House only a ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 704 c578 (Link to this contribution) Let me make it clear that I am not attacking the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson. I shall be very interes...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 704 c577 (Link to this contribution) I follow what my noble friend Lord Lester said. We welcome the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, into our ...
Lord Lyell | 704 c577 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Committee. I came in late, listened to the interesting and wise words of my noble...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c576 (Link to this contribution) In his speech on Amendment No. 29, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, mentioned an incidence of what we di...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c576-7 (Link to this contribution) As a non-member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, I express my sympathy for my noble friend’s ...
Baroness Stern | 704 c574-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34: 34: After Clause 33, insert the following new Clause— ““Extension of deten...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c575-6 (Link to this contribution) I have put my name to this amendment, as well as being a member of the Joint Committee on Human Righ...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c531-3 (Link to this contribution) I declared at Second Reading that I sit as the Home Secretary’s representative on the Metropolitan P...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c530 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary said that the reason we need this power is that there is a growing threat. When a...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 704 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) It certainly does not destroy the argument. The fact that the director-general of MI5 has said that ...
Bishop of Southwark | 704 c531 (Link to this contribution) I will make a very brief contribution from these Benches. I have listened carefully to the debate th...
Lord Judd | 704 c531 (Link to this contribution) A great deal of experience has been brought to bear—
Lord Brett | 704 c531 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey has been waiting for a long time.
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to my noble friend’s point a little later in my response. As a Government, we feel tha...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 704 c538 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has said that in his judgment such power will certainly be needed in the future. In ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c538 (Link to this contribution) The Government will do the absolute maximum to try to ensure people’s safety by ensuring that there ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c533-6 (Link to this contribution) Over the past few hours we have had another passionate, gripping and constructive debate. As a relat...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c537 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has not yet come to the question of legal difficulties under the European Convention on...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 704 c533 (Link to this contribution) I feel that it is the will of the Committee that we ask the Minister to respond to the amendment.
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c537 (Link to this contribution) Three, I hear. They could have murdered tens or hundreds—probably not thousands, but hundreds of peo...
Lord Blackwell | 704 c538 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord saying that if a person is released, rather than being held in custody at the end ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c537 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to go into that in detail. I simply say that I see nothing at all in what we are do...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 704 c507 (Link to this contribution) The answer to the first question is no, any more than Magna Carta is valid now as it was in 1215, bu...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 704 c502 (Link to this contribution) I always have the utmost respect for my noble friend’s arguments. Would she not agree that the time ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c504 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend accept that the European Convention on Human Rights might be a better standard ...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 704 c503-4 (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee at the outset of my remarks of my interest in this matter as independent revi...
Viscount Bledisloe | 704 c507 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord permit me to intervene to ask two questions? He said that he wants to see finali...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 704 c504-7 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with my noble friend. Later, I shall say that in my view these proposals are with...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 704 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord and I have been around in Welsh politics together for a very long time, and Cassandra...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 704 c507 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has given a very dire warning to this Committee. In the light of what he has said, an...
Lord Tomlinson | 704 c509 (Link to this contribution) I remind the noble Earl that the Parliamentary Committee of the Council of Europe has done no such t...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) I have the privilege of being a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which is extremely ab...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 704 c508 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I had just replied to that point. My point is that if you charge people by a lower st...
Lord Elton | 704 c508 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, it is important that lay Members of the Committee understand this a...
Lord Tomlinson | 704 c509 (Link to this contribution) I actually put the resolution. You are wrong.
Earl of Onslow | 704 c509 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps he was asleep, I do not know. I have the reference here in the JCHR report.
Earl of Onslow | 704 c509 (Link to this contribution) I have here a reference assembled by our legal adviser at the JCHR, and your Lordships can judge whe...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c509-10 (Link to this contribution) Even the UN Human Rights Committee and the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture commente...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c510 (Link to this contribution) I shall stick by the evidence that we heard in the Joint Committee on Human Rights and by the unanim...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 704 c510 (Link to this contribution) I refer the noble Earl to the speech made publicly by the head of the Security Service, MI5, about t...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c511 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the noble Earl would agree that each Member of the Committee must speak for himself.
Baroness Manningham-Buller | 704 c511 (Link to this contribution) I hear the noble Earl’s comment that my successor did not reply to his letter. I say merely that jus...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 704 c510 (Link to this contribution) What kind of evidence does the noble Earl wish to have? Does he want an affidavit from Osama bin Lad...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c511 (Link to this contribution) I am addressing your Lordships on the part of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. We all agreed tha...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 704 c511 (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend addressing your Lordships on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and, i...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend speaks with as much facility as Home Office officials draft their respon...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 704 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) If I thought that this provision for 42 days would make any difference in the fight against terroris...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c511 (Link to this contribution) I have been saying that we asked for evidence and have not had it. Of course, the successor of the n...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 704 c514 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord. His argument is as usual very persuasive, except t...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c513-4 (Link to this contribution) That is the right question. However, I put back to the noble Lord the sort of harm that can be done ...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 704 c513 (Link to this contribution) Would not a distinction between the normal limit and this one be that, if one is wrong, the conseque...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c513 (Link to this contribution) I hope I may at least reduce the temperature by a few degrees. I believe the Committee will already ...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 704 c513 (Link to this contribution) No. The reasonable suspicion is the reasonable suspicion that the person has committed a criminal of...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c513 (Link to this contribution) But the reasonable suspicion is that somebody has appeared in particular circumstances and is clearl...
Lord Dear | 704 c493-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for telling me that. I knew it, and I was going to comment on it...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 704 c493 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not agree that Andy Hayman also made it very clear that he still believes that m...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 704 c495-7 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. Many Members of the Committee will have seen the report in the Times on 6 O...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c491 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Dear | 704 c491-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 29: 29: Before Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— ““No extension of p...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 704 c492 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord said that in the United States people are kept in detention for up to two days only. ...
Lord Dear | 704 c492-3 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the detainees in Guantanamo were arrested outside the USA and its jurisdiction. T...
Baroness Mallalieu | 704 c502 (Link to this contribution) There is a major difference, which the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, will recognise, between someb...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 704 c501 (Link to this contribution) What is the difference between what the noble Baroness postulates now and the provision that somebod...
Baroness Mallalieu | 704 c501 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I certainly did not support 28 days because there is a principle, and 28 days is beyond...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 704 c501 (Link to this contribution) I have great respect for my noble friend in a whole range of areas, but will she explain to me the d...
Baroness Mallalieu | 704 c501 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that. I do not think that the noble Lord was in the Chamber when we debated 28 days....
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 704 c497-500 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches support the amendment so powerfully moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dear. Anyone w...
Baroness Mallalieu | 704 c500 (Link to this contribution) It is not a comfortable or happy position to find myself speaking and in due course, I trust, voting...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 704 c497 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness agree that the proposals in the 30th report of the Joint Committee on Human ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 704 c497 (Link to this contribution) I have read the report which contains a number of interesting proposals and a very acute analysis; I...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow in the wake of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit. He and hi...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c514 (Link to this contribution) The simple answer to that is: if there is a need for more people to analyse computers, let us have m...
Lord Tebbit | 704 c514-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and I understand the reasons. First, most of my friends supported indefinite detention without ...
Lord Sewel | 704 c518 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord help me regarding the incompatibility of these proposals with the European Conve...
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 704 c518 (Link to this contribution) May I correct my noble friend? In the Italian case to which he refers, they have been charged.
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 704 c518 (Link to this contribution) They were charged within quite a short period of time.
Lord Clinton-Davis | 704 c517 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a difference of view between police officers? Some support what the Opposition are sayi...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c517-8 (Link to this contribution) I am not rejecting anything at all. Of course reasonable people may disagree about the appropriate m...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 704 c518 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree that the 30th report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights proposes amend...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c518 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, misunderstands. Our report firmly opposes the extensio...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c518 (Link to this contribution) I shall not go into derogation at this stage. It is not relevant.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 704 c526 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is arguing, as have others, about the impracticality of these provisions. Is it not i...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 704 c523-5 (Link to this contribution) I remain uneasy about it. It is rather like the French system, which the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, d...
Lord Goodlad | 704 c525 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I bring to the attention of the Committee the role of Parliament envisaged in Clause 28, an...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 704 c522-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely that, if there is a long-term solution, it has to be though winning hearts and mind...
Lord Dear | 704 c523 (Link to this contribution) The whole point about charging the lesser offence first is that detention without trial disappears i...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 704 c521-2 (Link to this contribution) Osama bin Laden and his disciples could not have made it plainer that they are at war against us. Th...
Baroness Warsi | 704 c522 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I presume that he, like everybody else in this Committee, is ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the procedures of the Committee envisage such arguments. May I conclude by try...
Lord Imbert | 704 c519-21 (Link to this contribution) Although I have heard much genuine concern about the human rights of suspects, as is right, commenda...
Lord Goodlad | 704 c526 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I am not agreeing with the noble Lord, whose knowledge of irony is unparalleled. Y...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c580 (Link to this contribution) The Minister describes the process as fully adversarial, but am I right in thinking that a fully adv...
Baroness Mallalieu | 704 c502-3 (Link to this contribution) I totally accept that, but I believe that that period is currently available and practice is showing...
Earl of Onslow | 704 c510 (Link to this contribution) It is not for me to accept the evidence; it is for the Government, when they make a statement saying...
Lord Brett | 704 c516 (Link to this contribution) I think it is the Liberals’ turn now.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 704 c513 (Link to this contribution) That is nonsense because you can arrest only with a reasonable suspicion, and a reasonable suspicion...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 704 c545 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. ...
Lord Tebbit | 704 c514 (Link to this contribution) I should explain why I intend to support the Government today. I am mildly surprised that so few oth...
Subjects
Civil liberties Bail Detainees Computers Intelligence services ICT Human rights Legal aid scheme National security Prosecutions Police interrogation Sentencing Terrorism Remand in custody
Legislation
Counter-terrorism Bill 2007-08
Link
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