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Postal Services Bill [HL]

I oppose this amendment. I feel that the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, from the other place over the past 12 years means that he has probably gone to sleep on the issue of the Post Office and that in a number of respects he does not know what has happened to our post offices. In 1997, the incoming Labour Government inherited the Horizon project, which was set up to provide benefit recipients with swipe cards for collecting their benefits. The instructions given by either the Civil Service or Ministers—ultimately it is a ministerial responsibility—were so incoherent that the problems encountered by the system providers were of such an order that it took the best part of a decade to fully computerise Post Office services in the United Kingdom. That is the first thing that we have to recognise. During that period, a number of people decided that it would be better to get their benefits through the bank than from the Post Office. Certainly, if they went to a post office, they could not take advantage of automatic teller machines because the Post Office, with the acquiescence of the then Conservative Government, had refused to allow individual postmasters to have ATMs on their premises, as they would be regarded as competition with the state run Post Office as adumbrated by the Conservatives. Let us get the facts correct. A number of people who already get their works pensions through the bank find it equally convenient to get their state pension through the same source so that they can take their money out of the one account. They can also make standing order and direct debit arrangements, which are so convenient for elderly people who cannot get out so easily. Certainly, in my constituency when I was a Member of Parliament there was a significant drop in attendances at post offices, which then had difficulty in continuing. Some tried to diversify and it would have been an advantage if there had been a postal bank. There could have been a postal bank because there used to be the Girobank, but that was privatised, went over to the Alliance & Leicester and disappeared. So it ill becomes noble Lords on the Front Bench opposite to lecture us about the desirability of expanding services when they, more then any other group, were responsible for the contraction of a number of services and for the indifference of the then Government—and, in part, of the incoming Government—to the plight of some postmasters across the country. As the footfall was declining and people ceased to go to post offices in numbers, in many attractive villages where the post offices were located in positions where their real estate value was far in excess of the business case for keeping the shop going, the buildings were sold off as private dwellings because planning permission, from what I imagine would be Conservative local authorities, was easily granted for a change of use from commercial to domestic purposes. There are a number of reasons why post offices closed and why they changed. The rather flip and inaccurate way in which this amendment, which is not superficially unattractive, has been presented is irrelevant. The post office system is now on a far more rational basis than ever before. There are a number of franchise businesses across the country and, to all intents and purposes, the Post Office is a franchise business. In the past, franchises were granted with no regard to whether there was local competition or to the proximity of one post office to another—in some instances the distance between them was very slight and in others it was quite considerable—but that has now been rationalised. It might be said that it has been rationalised by a closure programme, but the closure programme was carried out with a rigour beyond the comprehension of the Front Bench opposite. Paradoxically, post offices could now be in a better position than ever before. There is less business, for the reasons that I have given, but there are fewer post offices, they are a distance away from one another and they should be able to stand on their own feet. There was a complete change when the lottery started. The lottery was a franchise and there had to be a certain distance between shops; alternatively, an outlet had to be within walking distance of any citizen in the country so that we could all have access to the fabulous prizes that the lottery affords. If the Royal Mail, the Post Office and the then Conservative Government had applied these sensible rules to the allocation of post offices across the country, we probably would not have had half the problems that we have encountered in the past 15 to 20 years. The crocodile tears being shed by the Tories are little short of hypocrisy. Certain things can be done and I would certainly be happy with a Post Office bank; I would be very pleased to have the Girobank brought back and available. However, if there were to be a change of government, I wonder whether the Tories would have the same priority following a general election as they have today. I very much doubt it. I am not satisfied that a report about the Post Office would come out. God almighty, there are so many reports about the Post Office. As I said on Second Reading, for 10 years we had about three meetings a year with the Post Office and the then Trade and Industry Select Committee. There is no shortage of reporting on it or debate about it. We do not necessarily need yet another report that will gather dust on the shelves of the Library of this House. The amendment is unnecessary and I hope that the Committee will reject it.