---

Postal Services Bill [HL]

I did not think I would have to go over some of the points I made at Second Reading. However, my noble friend Lord O’Neill, whose words I always listen to with great attention, has forced me to do so. I pointed out that a lot of things have happened in Royal Mail over the past 10 years. Fifty thousand people have gone and half the money for modernisation, which my noble friend said was needed, has already been spent. The orders have been placed, and some of them are coming in. The modernisation is due to take place. Call centres have been closed. Why do we not allow that to take place and take time to see how successful that is? My noble friend Lord Morgan was right when he said that 30 per cent could also be 49.5 per cent. The Bill may say 30 per cent now, but will they be coming back to Parliament because they want to increase it? I do not think they will. My noble friend Lady Turner is right to ask for the outline of a business plan because it could be far more far-reaching than the assurances we have had from the Secretary of State that it will be only 30 per cent at this stage. It will be a 30 per cent stake and a partnership, but what kind of partnership will it be? If I look at TNT, which has been mentioned, it has not had liberalisation in its own market. It will happen this year. It is already starting to squeal and say that liberalisation will have a dire effect on it, and its profits are down by 20 per cent. It has said to the workforce that it must take a pay cut or be sacked. If that is the kind of industrial relations that will be brought in by this company, I can see only trouble and calamity ahead for the Royal Mail. In addition, TNT does not have a good record at keeping things and delivering them. We know about the child benefit records it lost. What will it bring to the partnership, if it is the partner? Where is it going to get the money? It does not have it on its balance sheet and will have to go to the bank for a loan. Why cannot the same thing apply to Royal Mail? I wanted to put forward the question of a loan, so I asked the Library to find out the problems facing Royal Mail and the Treasury restrictions. I got a very interesting reply: ""Dear Lord Hoyle, Postal Services Bill Further our conversation earlier today, I have spoken to the Postal Services Bill team who advise me they are not able to comment before the Committee stage tomorrow on your query regarding the continued control by the Treasury over the Royal Mail"." Why can I not have that reply? Why can I not know what the restrictions are so that I can make the point here and ask for them to be lifted? Why the secrecy? What can we not be told before we have this debate? Can my noble friend give me the answer to that question? My noble friend Lord O’Neill mentioned co-operation. Why should there not be co-operation between the various post offices? To suggest that Royal Mail is not in Europe at the moment is wrong. It is in Europe in a big way—the noble Lord shakes his head—in the parcel industry. One of the most successful elements of Royal Mail is the parcel company. One of the things I am concerned about in relation to TNT, as is Royal Mail, is that it might be interested in taking over the successful European parcel business, GLS. I have had a Written Question down for a while to ask about this. The view is that the partner being proposed will take it over, yet Royal Mail is depending on it for 50 per cent of its business in future years because that is where the growth lies. With modern communications, growth lies in the parcel industry, and that is in danger from the partnership being proposed. Why are we going down this road at this moment? Why do we not let it settle and see whether the efficiency measures that are already in place and those that are to come are successful? If we are going to sell off part of the Royal Mail, in a recession is the worst possible time to do it. We will get the worst possible price if we go ahead now. That is another good reason why we should allow things to develop before we take up dogma. Dinosaurs have been mentioned. They might know the financial crisis in which we are taking over the banks and other things and be on the other side of those who are advocating that private must always be right and public must always be wrong. It is a dogma that is not proving successful worldwide at the moment. I appeal to the Government not to be hasty but to think again, allow the dust to settle and see how the company is going. It is making a profit, which is likely to be more than £250 million in the current year. If it did not lose £100 million in access and, instead, made £100 million, it would be highly profitable, and then it would be acceptable to ask for a loan in the market. Remove the shackles and let the Post Office become a company that can go. I still do not know why—