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Postal Services Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am a little puzzled by that. I listened to my noble friend Lord Clarke making what I thought was an extremely reasoned appeal for moderation on the part of my noble friend the Secretary of State. He mentioned the efficiency of the Post Office, but he could also have made the point that we have all been talking about efficiency rather than price. Royal Mail has been portrayed as inefficient, which it untrue. We have one of the cheapest and most efficient postal services in Europe. I want to go over some of what my noble friend said about TNT. When the Minister replied before, it appeared that TNT was extremely interested in taking a 30 per cent stake in Royal Mail. I warned then that what it was really interested in was General Logistics Systems, the European parcels system, which is the jewel in the crown. Now that that is out in the open, perhaps my noble friend will say whether the press reports that a condition of the bid was that TNT would have control of GLS were true. That would be extremely serious news for Royal Mail because one development of the fall in the number of letters was to be an extension of the parcel service, but that would not happen if GLS were part of TNT. TNT’s interest is waning because the financial position is worsening. I believe that its profits are 50 per cent down, so many of the shareholders are saying that, in the first instance, it must concentrate on putting its own house in order. I can only rely on the comments in the press. I know that my noble friend has said that he cannot discuss the details of any negotiations he may have had with interested parties. Once again, it is being said that £3 billion was asked for but my noble friend Lord Clarke said that that was a giveaway. I understand that the offer is less than £3 billion, which makes the situation even worse. Perhaps my noble friend will comment on the fact that the offer is nowhere near the £3 billion valuation, which I understand was the Government’s figure. Right now, Deutsche Post has fallen away and, if it is true that TNT is no longer very interested, the only remaining contender is CBC Capital, together with the Belgian post office. People do not appear to be queuing up to buy it and, when the market is at its lowest, it is the worst possible time to be offering it for sale. Apparently TNT is not prepared to offer anywhere near that price, which again is bad news for my noble friend the Secretary of State. On the offer from the Opposition—surprise, surprise—I would like to see these unlikely partners marching together through the Division Lobby. I would be delighted to think that a manifesto proposal from the Labour Party is being defeated with Conservative support. That is not the kind of thing that I want written in the annals of the Labour Party. If we believe in something we should stand up for it. When we were talking about a planned programme of post office closures, we knew where the Liberals stood, but I did not know where the Conservatives stood. We shall come on to that. Perhaps the noble Lord opposite, who I know is always willing to reply, would reply in due course on that. My noble friend will speak to Amendment 92 shortly, but my name is attached to it and, although I must allow him to make his case himself, I think it is a very modest proposal. I do not see why the Secretary of State could not accept it because all it does is put off Part 1, dealing with part privatisation, for three years and it asks for three conditions to be met. The first is, ""the full implementation of the Pay and Modernisation Agreement"," and it asks that it be signed. Secondly, it asks that, within three years of the passing of the Act, that funds be made available to Royal Mail, either through a national loan plan or through private capital, to which I referred previously. Thirdly, within three years the pension scheme will have passed over to the Government and, if all these aspirations are met, it can only strengthen the position of Royal Mail. The Hooper report has been referred to, but Royal Mail’s financial position is different from what it was when the report was being prepared: all divisions are now profitable and will continue to make profit. It is going the right way and, with the removal of the yoke of the pension fund for which successive Governments were responsible, it will be in a far better position to go forward. I hope that my noble friend will not listen to the siren voices on the Benches opposite offering their full support but listen to what we are saying. There are other ways of achieving our aims—for instance, by continuing with the manifesto promise and with modernisation. A new factor is the waning interest of the people who might come in to take over through part privatisation. I look forward to hearing from my noble friend, as always. I hope that he has listened to what we have had to say and will be able to offer us hope for the future.