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Coroners and Justice Bill

My Lords, perhaps I may first address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who explained rather better than I can from my notes the basis of his first point. Proposed new subsection (3A) is meant to relate to the narrow point of operational police matters. Because the ICVs will be appropriately cleared, they will normally be able to listen to recordings and so on. The second, and I think key, point was made by the noble Baroness. It concerns whether this is other than an ex post facto exercise. It is not and it would be wrong of me to try to use words that gave comfort in that direction. We believe that the process will be powerful in monitoring whether the procedure has been carried out properly. Earlier, I gave the noble Baroness various assurances about the inspectorate looking at how this is done. I was asked whether the ICVs would have any input into the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. I do not think that this will be a simply academic process. I believe that the fact that the views of responsible persons will be looked at carefully by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, will have an effect on maintaining standards. One of the most telling points made by the noble Baroness—I can see why it was quite attractive—concerned the Northern Ireland experience. The independent commission worked well in Northern Ireland because it was a small jurisdiction with one place where subjects were held and with high levels of co-operation between the police and the commission. On the mainland, however, a significant number of terrorist suspects have been arrested and held in police stations throughout the country, including in London, Devon, Manchester, Kent, Heathrow, Norfolk, Nottingham, Surrey, Buckinghamshire and the West Midlands. With so many forces potentially involved, it would be harder to maintain levels of co-operation and communication. Ultimately, the commission in Northern Ireland was no longer deemed necessary because of the significant overlap with the work of other bodies charged with inspecting and investigating pre-charge detention conditions—for example, the work carried out by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, lay visitors and the HMIC. In fact, I believe that the commission was abandoned in 2005. I turn to the other points raised by the noble Baroness. There will be a specialist coroner. He will receive specialist training and will of course be appropriately security-cleared. On the JCHR, we are sensitive to the Joint Committee’s views, but the Government take the view that the process is rigorous, for the reasons that I set out earlier. With regard to the extent to which the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, will be involved in this work and the amount of time that he will have to spend on it, it is unlikely that he will attend more than the odd extension hearing, because he has no role in the process. As I said, his role is ex post facto; none the less, it is a powerful role. He is likely to limit his detention centre visits to the most serious investigations. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has been consulted about the amendment. He already has a statutory role in relation to the operation of the Terrorism Act 2000, which includes reporting annually on the operation of pre-charge detention. Although he has tended not to get involved in individual cases, his role does not preclude him from doing so. Indeed, he has reported on the individual cases of those involved in Operation Pathway. I hope that, with those explanations, the House will be able to support the Motion. Motion D agreed.