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Flood and Water Management Bill

My Lords, I have tried to emphasise that on this work that we are doing, which is backed up by money—and I had rather hoped that that would bring a constructive and happy smile to the faces on the Committee, instead of raising questions—it is not a question of ring-fencing. It is directed towards the issues that my noble friend raises in his amendment and which have been substantiated by the arguments. The question of the effectiveness of the response by the emergency and rescue services, including those that operate in voluntary capacities, needs to be addressed. We are addressing that and putting money behind the concept. I am not, as a result of that, going to get involved in local authority finance, government grants or anything else; I am dealing with the Bill. We do not need this as part of the Bill, because if we need to move in the way that my noble friend said in statutory terms, we have the order-making power. Over the years, I have been conditioned to be somewhat wary of being on a collision course with my noble friend, because I know of the thoroughness with which he does his work and I have, from time to time, seen Ministers get into some difficulty from clashing directly with him. However, he will know that after the Commons debate, which he has just quoted and where anxieties were expressed about the order-making power, we addressed ourselves thoroughly to that issue. The response that we gave in the Commons was along the lines of the response that I am giving now; that we have it under the Act. I have to tell my noble friend that we are in disagreement. The Government’s position is that the power is general and broad enough for us to be able to use it in exactly the terms in which I responded to him. I cannot do much more than attest to that, while recognising the problem that I may face. If there is error—there is never error on the Government’s side, but if my interpretation of our position is in error—I have no doubt that I shall face that day when my noble friend wreaks retribution, for I am in collision with him here. It is because of that that I think we have the framework that he is after, and I would like him to withdraw his amendment accordingly.