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Debate on bill on Wednesday, 12 October 2005, in the House of Lords.

Charities Bill [HL]

Charities Bill (HL). Lords report stage first day. (Part 1 of 2).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
674 c292-356 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Charities Bill [HL]
Wednesday, 12 October 2005
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c322-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9: Page 77, leave out lines 41 and 42. The noble Lord said: My Lords, with thi...
Lord Boston of Faversham | 674 c322 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in calling Amendment No. 9, I have to tell your Lordships that if it is agreed to I cannot...
Show all contributions (123)
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c322 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response to my amendment. I did not agree with a p...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c324-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had some healthy debates about the independence of the Charity Commission. As was ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 674 c324 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to say a word about the Minister’s response on the last occasion. Either it means t...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c324 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would briefly like to support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Ast...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c323-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment No. 10 is grouped with the amendment just moved with irresistibility by the nobl...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c326-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 10: Page 77, line 41, leave out from ““appointment”” to end of line 42 and inse...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c326 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. As ever, he put his case forcefully. I am grateful to my no...
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe | 674 c314 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to the amendment, which would require the Charity Commission to,"“...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c315-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment addresses an issue that we have already debated several times during the va...
Lord Borrie | 674 c314-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Best, is probably one that can be broadly accepted....
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c316 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not aware of whether the Charity Commission wish to have this amendment. But I am say...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c316 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Is he aware that the Charity Commissi...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 674 c318 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will my noble friend say a brief word about the policy of the Government in this area? Cer...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c316-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in Committee on 28 June, I undertook to study and to reflect very carefully on the contrib...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c319 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this mini-debate and particularly to t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c318-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am reluctant to respond to my noble friend because of the conventions of the House. It ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c321 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 8: Page 4, line 24, at end insert ““unless and until it registers as such, in w...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 674 c309 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to ask a question. In the case, say, of a school which could not meet the pub...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c307-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, for bringing this amendment back after su...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c306-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I still have to say that the situation is not sufficiently covered in the amendment, altho...
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market | 674 c306 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I made clear that I recognised that this way of getting the issue debated on the Floor of ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c306 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord has got me with my trousers down. Basically, though, if the Bill were to cl...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c306 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord’s persuasive train of thought, but he was a member ...
Lord Best | 674 c312-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. The link between the Bill’s public benefit requirement and the ch...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c310-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: Page 3, line 40, at end insert— ““(   )   In carrying out consultation und...
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market | 674 c309-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Hodgson and Lord Forsyth for their support. I would say to t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c309 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is right. Of course it would be possible for the trustees to sell the schoo...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c349-50 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 31:"Page 9, line 8, at end insert—" ““(   )   Rules under subsection (2)(a) or...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c349 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am slightly lost. I am not sure that I have not acted with undue patience in having the ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c348-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 30:"Page 9, line 8, leave out ““(see subsection (5))””" The noble Lord said: My...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c348 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 29:"Page 9, line 6, leave out ““and applications”” and insert ““, applications o...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c350 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what is meant in Amendment No. 31 by ““any other person””? The amendment allows rules to b...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c347 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 26: Page 8, line 27, leave out ““those”” and insert ““any such”” The noble Lor...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c347-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I see the point of Amendment No. 28, but it is quite open-ended, allowing matters to be de...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c348 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord asks a perfectly reasonable question. Clearly, the Lord Chancellor’s rules ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c347 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27:"Page 8, line 35, leave out ““or applications”” and insert ““, applications o...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c347 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 28:"Page 8, line 41, at end insert—" ““(   )   for matters to be determined wi...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c353 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it must have been the other Lord Phillips, the Lord Chief Justice.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c353 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can recall signing the letter and I am told that it was handed to the noble Lord, Lord P...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c353 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry; I have just nodded to the Minister’s officials in the Box. I now recollect tha...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c353 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we had better check on that, but I think not. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, is far too we...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c350 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I take it to mean those who are relevant to the proceedings. The noble Lord has a point an...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c350 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 32:"Page 9, leave out lines 9 to 17 and insert—" ““(5)   The Tribunal may awar...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c350-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34:"Page 9, line 17, at end insert—" ““(   )   The Lord Chancellor may, after ...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c351-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with all that has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, regarding the amendm...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c352 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have debated already the possibility of establishing a suitors’ fund. Indeed, we debate...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c352-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, for...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c356 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. In moving the Motion,...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c354 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response, but I am afraid that I remain unswayed in...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c355-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 35 to 36:"Page 9, line 27, leave out ““on a point of law””""Page 9, line 27, a...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c353 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that last remark. However, he has said that there will be a rev...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c353-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that aphorism is a common one, but I do not think that this will be a case of justice dela...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c353 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord has been very gracious in admitting his failed recollection. Where appropr...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c327-8 (Link to this contribution) With respect, my Lords, I do not think the Minister answered the question of the noble and learned L...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c330 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11: Page 81, line 8, leave out ““for England and Wales”” The noble Lord said: ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 674 c327 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is there any reason of which the Minister can think why the position as he describes it sh...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c327 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a good reason when one considers the material impact of what these amendments wou...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c330-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 12: Page 82, line 18, at end insert— (1)   The new Commission and the old Com...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c331-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13: Page 7, line 20, after ““its”” insert ““regulatory”” The noble Lord said: ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 674 c330 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps the Minister will explain why Clause 6 contains so many references to the Charity ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c330 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is merely a tidying-up issue. It is for simplicity and ease of understanding. On Quest...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c332 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendments in part. Amendment No. 14 with the proposal to leav...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c327 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am loath to get up, but the amendment covers more than just the pension issue. I thought...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c333-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to add a few words. The noble Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, said—I think...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c334-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall take the amendments in sequence. I shall start with Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 and ...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c336-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I understand what my noble f...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c337 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 14: Page 7, line 20, leave out ““, so far as relevant,”” The noble Lord said: ...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c338 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 15: Page 7, line 25, at end insert ““and sh...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c339 (Link to this contribution) moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 16, Amendment No. 17: Line 2, after ““must”” insert ““, whe...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c339 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Government and the Minister for taking on board the result of the score draw o...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 674 c333 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise also fairly briefly to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen. I did...
Lord Dahrendorf | 674 c332-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is almost embarrassing to rise again in defence of two little words. I say ““almost emb...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c342-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thought that was what he said the first time, but as I said, Section 14 refers to:"““App...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c342 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not hear which section the noble Lord referred to. Will he repeat it?
Lord Swinfen | 674 c341-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Section one, four—Section 14—refers to"““cy-près of gifts of donors unknown or disclaiming...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c342 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is right about Section 14. I shall check that point. The comm...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c341 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, did the Minister say ““Section one four””?
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c341 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did indeed say Section 1(4).
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c341 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, said, we discussed this at Second Reading and in Committe...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c339-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment No. 17, as an amendment to Amendment No....
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c346 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 21:"Page 8, line 12, leave out ““Tribunal”” and insert ““constitution of the Tri...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c346-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 22 to 25:"Page 8, leave out lines 13 and 14 and insert—" ““(4)   The Tribuna...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c345 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and the Government for having tabled this group of amendment...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c345-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I commend the Government on Amendment No. 50, which is a significant improvement to the Bi...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c346 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 20:"Page 8, line 8, leave out ““Appeal””" On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c343 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would it help if I suggested that we are discussing Section 1 subsection 4—1(4)?
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c343-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 19:"Page 8, line 8, leave out ““Appeal””" The noble Lord said: My Lords, in mov...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c343 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for that clarification. Obviously something got left out...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 674 c301 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I commend my noble friend’s assiduous looking at the rules, but this is an important point...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 674 c304-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment proposed by my noble friend, which seems very sensible. I say to t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c321-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful again to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, for his careful explanation. In Comm...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 674 c301 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must remind my noble friend that we are on Report, and once the Minister has sat down th...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c338-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 16: Page 7, line 25, at end insert—"““.   In performing its functions the Commi...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c346 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not have an answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. It is certainl...
Lord Swinfen | 674 c340-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 18: Page 7, line 28, at end insert— ““6.   In performing its regulatory funct...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c343 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry, I misread my note.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 674 c295 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is the same answer that has been given many times now as we go round this course. We ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c293-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful for that introduction. While my noble friend Lord Borrie was speaking, ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c293 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a self-denying ordinance at this stage is not a bad one, but I cannot resist reminding the...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c292-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have been round this point quite a lot before and the Minister gave us an exposé of the...
Lord Borrie | 674 c293 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have been round this course before, as the noble Lord has just said. My colleague and n...
Baroness Whitaker | 674 c292 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: Page 2, line 10, at end insert ““or belief”” The noble Baroness said: My Lo...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 674 c298-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4: Page 2, line 22, at end insert— ““(   )   A purpose described in subsectio...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c297-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the easiest response I can make is to say that we have been convinced by the arguments. We...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c299-300 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sympathetic to what I take to be the intent of the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, but I...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c296 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: Page 2, line 20, at end insert— ““(   )   the promotion of the efficiency ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 674 c296-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Government for the amendment which copies word for word the amendment which I ...
Lord Renton | 674 c297 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when dealing with charities, we must not become confused about responsibility for the Arme...
Lord Borrie | 674 c297 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Renton, has touched on an important point. I think that the Governmen...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c295 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can come to the Minister’s aid. The answer is no.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c295 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is a pretty good response.
Baroness Whitaker | 674 c295-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this commendably short debate. I a...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 674 c300-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend has clearly and explicitly explained the Government’s position. I am sure ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c300 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, under the existing legal framework charities may engage in campaigning so long as it is in...
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market | 674 c301-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6: After Clause 3, insert the following new clause—    ““ORGANISATIONS CHARIT...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 674 c301 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response and also the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, f...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 674 c304 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am having great difficulty with the amendment. It has always been the case that turning ...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 674 c305 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like my noble friend, I have not had the problems that the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, has wit...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 674 c305-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one cannot fail to understand what the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market, is get...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 674 c295 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am inclined to ask the Bishop to respond.
Subjects
Clubs Appeals Charities Armed forces Charity Commission Charitable donations Finance Fees and charges Fundraising Regulation Registration Tax allowances Taxation Sports Charity Tribunal
Legislation
Charities Bill (HL) 2005-06
Link
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