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Debate on bill on Wednesday, 29 November 2006, in the House of Commons, led by Mike O'Brien. The answering member was Lord Garnier.

Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill

Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill. Second reading debate. Agreed to on division (289 votes to 219). Programme motion on proceedings in Committee, on Report, Third reading and any other proceedings. Agreed to on question.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
453 c1088-178 
Session
2006-07
Department
Home Office
Solicitor General
Legislative stage
Second reading
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Garnier | 453 c1165-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall begin by referring to some remarks made by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1168 (Link to this contribution) If I have understood the hon. and learned Gentleman correctly, he is saying that the issue is one of...
Show all contributions (263)
Lord Garnier | 453 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I am hesitant to reach any accommodation with the hon. Gentleman because I found what he said almost...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1168 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Lord Garnier | 453 c1168-70 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. The hon. Gentleman has given us the benefit of his views and we are able to judge th...
Joan Ryan | 453 c1170-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. My hon. and learned Friend the ...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1171 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady has been relying on Lord Roskill and Lord Justice Auld, but perhaps she should remind ...
Joan Ryan | 453 c1171 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General set out in his speech what they recommended. They b...
Joan Ryan | 453 c1172 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman is correct. I turn to several of the comments made by hon. Members d...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1171 (Link to this contribution) I would not like the Minister unwittingly to mislead herself, let alone anybody else. The jurisdicti...
Bob Spink | 453 c1153-4 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General is absolutely right that he was quoting someone else when he used the phrase. ...
David Jones | 453 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I refer to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Interests. It is a privilege to be called to ...
David Jones | 453 c1154-6 (Link to this contribution) It does indeed. My right hon. and learned Friend is quite right. I have no doubt that the adherence ...
Andrew Pelling | 453 c1156-7 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to the reasons given by the Solicitor-General and his hon. Friend the Member fo...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1147-8 (Link to this contribution) No. This may be a technical point, but it is an important aspect of the law. The Solicitor-General r...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1148-50 (Link to this contribution) I agree. One should not try to anticipate precisely how long a trial will be before it starts. That ...
David Jones | 453 c1148 (Link to this contribution) If, as the Solicitor-General suggests, the Government’s only concern is to relieve juries of partici...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1153 (Link to this contribution) It is important that we do not misrepresent people in the House. The hon. Gentleman is quoting selec...
Bob Spink | 453 c1150-3 (Link to this contribution) I am one of the few non-legal minds contributing to the debate, so it could be said that I speak for...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General has not dealt with the fears and suspicions that I have set out. On the contra...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1147 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a second, after I have finished this point. Is the Solicitor-General trying to sa...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1147 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, as we are finally getting down to the real arguments in his spe...
Baroness Hoey | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman. I am following his remarks and agreeing with them wholeheartedly. Does h...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, but first I must give way to the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey).
Speaker | 453 c1165 (Link to this contribution) I can understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern about that serious matter, but at the moment I have no...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1165 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can you advise the House whether in special circ...
Speaker | 453 c1165 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman is correct. Urgent questions have to be tabled in the morning a...
David Heath | 453 c1163 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting observation, but the Bill before us today is not called the ““Plea Bargaining...
Damian Green | 453 c1165 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Many hon. Members will be concerned by reports of violent d...
David Heath | 453 c1163-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is nodding that that is the case. I find it alarming that a person who is a lawye...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was present when my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-un...
David Heath | 453 c1162-3 (Link to this contribution) It is true. At the same time, however, there is a perfectly rational case to be made that does not h...
David Burrowes | 453 c1159-61 (Link to this contribution) That point has also been made by other hon. Members. Nevertheless, it has been part of the Solicitor...
David Heath | 453 c1162 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes). Towards the end of...
David Burrowes | 453 c1159 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that clarification. The Solicitor-General alluded to the Jubilee line case. We mu...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1159 (Link to this contribution) The inspector, Stephen Wooler, also made it clear that there was no reason to believe that section 4...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1159 (Link to this contribution) My point was not that the jury caused any lengthening of cases, but that in order to ensure that cas...
David Burrowes | 453 c1157-9 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a practising criminal solicitor. Indeed, my firm has been a member of the s...
Andrew Pelling | 453 c1157 (Link to this contribution) That is helpful, but it might have been better if that comment had been made earlier. Many cases th...
Andrew Pelling | 453 c1157 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I have not antagonised the Solicitor-General.
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1133 (Link to this contribution) May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman a straight question? If the proposal before us was fo...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1133 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford), who has just spoken for 25 minutes, reminds us o...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I begin by declaring an interest as a Crown court recorder and as a part-time district judge. I asso...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1134-6 (Link to this contribution) I would give that proposal serious consideration, but in the end, my answer would be no. I am in fav...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1137-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made his contribution. I shall go no further. I agree wholeheartedly with tw...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1137 (Link to this contribution) Was it not Churchill who said that one is enough?
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1139 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and his intervention gives me the chance to pay tribute to h...
David Heath | 453 c1138-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful speech. The jurisdiction that is said to have the best recor...
Bill Wiggin | 453 c1139 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a most interesting and cogent argument, and I am completely convinced by wh...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1132-3 (Link to this contribution) Opposition Members have asked Members on the Labour Benches, collectively, to produce the evidence, ...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1130-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman misapplies himself to the Government’s developing agenda. If the measure comes to...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I have resisted intervening until now. Does not the hon. Gentleman accept that we cannot judge the e...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the Minister, who has dealt with the point. The second part of my speech is about the ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1130 (Link to this contribution) As I mentioned Diplock courts, perhaps it is best that I deal with the point. My hon. and learned Fr...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1132 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it not correct that interventions of that kind should ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1132 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. There is a serious history of such proposals, and eminent judges have...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1131-2 (Link to this contribution) Unless my hon. and learned Friend has gone over to the Opposition Benches, I was not talking about h...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1131 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend at least accept it from me, as someone who has prosecuted many serious fraud cas...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1132 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My point was merely that the evidence since 2003 has continued to s...
Speaker | 453 c1132 (Link to this contribution) I have indicated that all interventions should be brief. It is for me, rather than for hon. Members,...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Lady with pleasure, although I had hoped that the Solicitor-General wou...
Baroness Hoey | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1143-4 (Link to this contribution) I did not know that and I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for intervening and pointing that o...
David Heath | 453 c1143 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may or may not know that those words were also quoted with devastating effect in ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1145 (Link to this contribution) Well, the Solicitor-General has deepened my concerns. A statement made in court and unchallenged is ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1144-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may find it useful to realise that there has long been a distinction between mate...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to one of the two Labour Members to whom I referred. He happens to be the one I dis...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman, but has he not thought that, as several Members have reminded us...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1142-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not know where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. This is not a timetable motion debate; it is ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1142 (Link to this contribution) We in this House often have our best debates on matters of fundamental and constitutional principle,...
Richard Shepherd | 453 c1142 (Link to this contribution) As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) pointed out...
Richard Shepherd | 453 c1140-1 (Link to this contribution) I will continue. With the exception of the hon. Gentleman, to whom I will give way later, all those ...
Richard Shepherd | 453 c1140 (Link to this contribution) It is a curiosity that the Members taking part in this debate are representatives of English constit...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1140 (Link to this contribution) How right my hon. Friend is. With the Bill, the Government appear to be saying to jurors—my hon. Fri...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1139-40 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The jury is an integral part of the whole principle of justice b...
Nicholas Winterton | 453 c1140 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to my hon. Friend’s speech, and I apologise for not having been present for a lot of...
Joan Ryan | 453 c1174 (Link to this contribution) A series of high-profile cases—Maxwell, Blue Arrow, da Costa, the Talbot Village Trust case in 2004,...
Joan Ryan | 453 c1173-4 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman and I can have a discussion after the vote, when we have had the outcome....
Speaker | 453 c1174 (Link to this contribution) Order. Conversations appear to be breaking out throughout the House. These are extremely serious mat...
Andrew Turner | 453 c1173 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Will you confirm that the vote takes place after the debate...
Speaker | 453 c1173 (Link to this contribution) I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that that is self-evident.
Simon Hughes | 453 c1172 (Link to this contribution) Apart from the Jubilee line case, which collapsed for reasons that were nothing to do with the jury,...
Joan Ryan | 453 c1172-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General listed the cases—I am sure that the hon. Gentleman ...
Joan Ryan | 453 c1172 (Link to this contribution) My point was about the European Court of Human Rights. My hon. and learned Friend will have to go aw...
Speaker | 453 c1127 (Link to this contribution) Order. But all at once would be helpful.
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1127-8 (Link to this contribution) I will try to juggle my parallel arguments at the same time, Mr. Deputy Speaker. First, I want to d...
Michael Fabricant | 453 c1128 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should say ““specious”” or ““spurious””.
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1128 (Link to this contribution) Fatuous. We should add all the points that have been made together. I was taught as a very junior m...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1125 (Link to this contribution) I was going to make just that point to the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier). Und...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1125 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the vast majority of trials in which the prosec...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1125-7 (Link to this contribution) I was trying to deal with the substantive point, rather than the supplementary point made by the hon...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1127 (Link to this contribution) May I make my speech in two parts?
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1125 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may also wish to ponder the point that the Law Officers and prosecution authoriti...
David Burrowes | 453 c1128 (Link to this contribution) As a new Member, I will focus on the present. If we put to one side the fundamental points of princi...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1121-3 (Link to this contribution) No—that we have started looking at the pieces of legislation that we would wish to be repealed, and ...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1121 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is very important that those in the other place should stand f...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1121 (Link to this contribution) I agree exactly with the first proposition, and I have already started to encourage my friends in th...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether judge-led trials will lead to an increase in the number of types of trials tha...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I can understand that argument, but I do not think that the prerequisite is to move from jury to jud...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1123 (Link to this contribution) If the House had been able to implement this measure when the 2003 Act was passed, does the hon. Gen...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1123 (Link to this contribution) I think that it would have been equally necessary. The burden of all the evidence is that what we ne...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1125 (Link to this contribution) Indeed not. The system is clear. We have annual reports from the Serious Fraud Office. It reports on...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1124-5 (Link to this contribution) Did the hon. Gentleman draw from the Solicitor-General’s recent intervention the suggestion that cas...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1120 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. She puts the point very well. It is a fear that many have, and that...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1120 (Link to this contribution) Of course, the Solicitor-General said it in terms. He said:"““We have no intention at this stage””."...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1120 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman has picked up the minutiae that I missed, and I dare say it will be i...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1120 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend is going to correct it now.
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1120 (Link to this contribution) We have no plans. Will the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) be happy with that?
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1120-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I know that he has many concerns about civil liberties, and that th...
David Winnick | 453 c1120 (Link to this contribution) Bearing in mind my earlier intervention on the Solicitor-General, does my hon. and learned Friend ac...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1118 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If the argument suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, W...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1118-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend is being generous in giving way to me again. He seems to be arguing that ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1119 (Link to this contribution) With great respect, I have to point out that the Solicitor-General does not listen to what I say, if...
Diane Abbott | 453 c1119-20 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend accept that there are those of us who lack the legal expertise of so...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1118 (Link to this contribution) What about the 150 years of civil justice before a single judge? How does that run parallel, or at a...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1118 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. I have one more point to make about our judiciary. One of the reasons why our jud...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1118 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I do not entirely understand that intervention. Is the argument that we are dealing ...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1118 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the problems he has been exploring relate to previous...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1117 (Link to this contribution) But with great respect, not in the example of the Diplock courts—an aberrant system of justice, whic...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1117 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for giving way again. I pointed out that such issues hav...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1117 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend. I have three points to make to him. First, the Serious ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1117 (Link to this contribution) I was hoping to have an answer, but unhappily I did not; or rather, it was an attempt at an answer b...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1117 (Link to this contribution) I pause so that the Solicitor-General can answer that interesting question, which perplexes the whol...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1115-6 (Link to this contribution) There is much in what the hon. and learned Gentleman says. The Government’s approach has caused seri...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1115 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with the hon. and learned Gentleman. Does he agree that the Government’s cyni...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1115 (Link to this contribution) I simply concur with that and, as they say in the Court of Appeal, have nothing to add. This Bill i...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1115 (Link to this contribution) If one needs public evidence of that one need only look at the remarks made in the other place by fo...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1114-5 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman waits a moment, I shall deal with that as I develop my argument. I shall star...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1112 (Link to this contribution) Juries convict in 85 per cent. of fraud cases and anybody who thinks that they will get an easier ri...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with the hon. and learned Gentleman and that brings me to my point about procedure....
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1112-3 (Link to this contribution) I wish to query the statistic about conviction rates given by my hon. and learned Friend the Member ...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1113-4 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether that was left out of the Solicitor-General’s speech or was to form part of the...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1114 (Link to this contribution) I shall endeavour to be brief. The last time that I said that at the beginning of a speech, they wer...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1111 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and such a Bill would at least have some intellectual logic. Of ...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1111 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General seems to be arguing that the issue is huge time burdens on the jury and other ...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1112 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s words trouble me somewhat, and I shall explain why. First, there was the implic...
Paul Farrelly | 453 c1111 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making some very reasonable points about case management—not for nothing does ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1109-10 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have read that report, from which the hon. Gentleman has quoted selectively. He puts up the ...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1108-9 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The document I am referring to was prepared to inform that report. ...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1109 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend leaves this issue, will he remind the House that that jury accepted empanelmen...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1110-1 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, who makes another very important point. Juries should not...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1110 (Link to this contribution) Let me make the position clear. On selective quotation, the Solicitor-General has had one advantage ...
David Burrowes | 453 c1110 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to dwell too much on the Jubilee line case, but are not the comments of Her Majesty’s ...
Speaker | 453 c1108 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but it is helpful to those seeking to record and ...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1108 (Link to this contribution) Yet, as my hon. Friend says. From my personal experience, it is crystal clear that juries can be mad...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1106-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Delay in any criminal justice process is a bad thing, and I know...
Jonathan Djanogly | 453 c1106 (Link to this contribution) Cases may take five or even 10 years to come to court, and that often has nothing to do with juries....
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1107-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman had better ask the Solicitor-General and the Government about that. It was not an...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1107 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. He and I have debated a number of such Bill...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1105 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman again, but after that I want to make some progress.
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1106 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly reasonable point, but the same applies to jury trials. Judges o...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1106 (Link to this contribution) The Bill—like section 43 of the 2003 Act, which we have already passed—is all about case management....
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1105 (Link to this contribution) It relates to the point about reducing the fear of crime. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that if th...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1105 (Link to this contribution) I think it most unlikely that it will make any difference at all. One of the Solicitor-General’s arg...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1103-5 (Link to this contribution) I cannot think of a reason why we should not. Indeed, if anyone asks for my view, I shall say that w...
Christopher Chope | 453 c1103 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend says that having a stand-alone Bill is an advantage. Does he agree that one advantage...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1103 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that my right hon. and learned Friend is right. The history of the Bill is littered ...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1103 (Link to this contribution) In welcoming the fact that we have a stand-alone Bill, is not the problem that we are enabling the G...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1103 (Link to this contribution) I suppose that one thing I can say to greet the Bill is that I am at least pleased that the Solicito...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1102-3 (Link to this contribution) We do not intend drugs cases to be dealt with in that way, but some cases brought by the Revenue and...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1102 (Link to this contribution) A few minutes ago, the Solicitor-General was telling us about a fraud case that he argued was eminen...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1101 (Link to this contribution) That is discrimination. What about our human rights?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I will finish my point. Before I finish my speech, I promise the hon. Gentleman that I will give way...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1100 (Link to this contribution) Not at the moment. We do not want to deal with the issue of unrepresentative juries by having an un...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1100 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I have been generous in giving way to the hon. Gentleman, but I will do so again.
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1101 (Link to this contribution) In our trials, arguments must be set out orally, at length, before a jury, and those arguments can b...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Solicitor-General, because he is now touching on an important area that he hint...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1101 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way just once more?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1101 (Link to this contribution) While I am on the subject of great length, let me say that I have now been on my feet for about 40 m...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1128-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend mentioned a point that I made. I am sorry to say that I do not know the discipline in...
Speaker | 453 c1129 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. and learned Gentleman has made quite a lengthy intervention.
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1128 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes the same intervention as he made on the Solicitor-General, so in that sense...
Speaker | 453 c1129 (Link to this contribution) Order. If the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) wishes to intervene, he knows how...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1129 (Link to this contribution) I was suggesting to the hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) that if he thinks that the po...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1129 (Link to this contribution) If you do not mind, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will leave that intervention to lie where it was, becaus...
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I am simply pointing out that judges can apply the relevant burden of proof in single-judge cases.
Stephen Hesford | 453 c1129 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I have already dealt with the point. A further bad point was made about a single ju...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I have been wanting to raise a matter about Diplock courts for some time. When they were debated, it...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1094-5 (Link to this contribution) We have no intention at this stage—[Hon. Members: ““At this stage?””]—of taking any of the steps tha...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1094 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General has drawn attention to the stresses. I have no doubt that there were stresses ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1094 (Link to this contribution) The House has considered the matter since 2003 and taken a view on it, as it did only a few months a...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1092-3 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I shall not give way as I wish to make progress. However, I will accept interventio...
Keith Vaz | 453 c1093 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General tell us a little about the consultation process? I recall that the last t...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1093-4 (Link to this contribution) To some extent, we will have to rely on the good offices of the person appointed as Lord Chief Justi...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1094 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General knows that the 2003 Act would not have been passed had agreement not been reac...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1093 (Link to this contribution) There has been discussion of the change over a long period, involving submissions to Lord Justice Au...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1093 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General says that there are three safeguards—the prosecution must persuade the judge, ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1092 (Link to this contribution) The Government did take that into account—after all, we introduced the legislation to enable such tr...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1092 (Link to this contribution) May I touch on the point about specimen counts? As a result of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Vict...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1090 (Link to this contribution) First, the measure is not the first foot in the door, as the hon. Gentleman put it—far from it—and i...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1091 (Link to this contribution) May I just answer the question posed by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield? I shall then give way to s...
Jonathan Djanogly | 453 c1091 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General continually says that experience has shown that juries should be got rid of, b...
Paul Farrelly | 453 c1091 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. and learned Friend rightly said, calls for the special treatment of a small number of cas...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1091 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. It is necessary to address those issues.
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1098-9 (Link to this contribution) I am not advancing what the hon. and learned Gentleman describes as the stupid jury argument—not at ...
Jonathan Djanogly | 453 c1096 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way on that point?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1098 (Link to this contribution) No. Perhaps I can answer the hon. and learned Gentleman’s question, then he can intervene if he real...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1098 (Link to this contribution) One good chunter deserves another, I would have thought. I thought that the Solicitor-General’s case...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1098 (Link to this contribution) There are two key issues. First, this area has a long history, whereas others do not, and we do not ...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1098 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?
Lord Garnier | 453 c1098 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General said that lengthy cases place an undue burden on the jury. However, as the hon...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1097 (Link to this contribution) This is now a rather antique intervention on the subject of the Jubilee line. As my hon. and learned...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1096 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to my hon. and learned Friend later, but I need to make some progress. Our criminal...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1095 (Link to this contribution) I have given way to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield on two occasions. I shall give way once more, a...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1095 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General has touched on an important issue. As he is well aware, many trials that have ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1095-6 (Link to this contribution) We are proposing what we say we are proposing. Cases such as Blue Arrow, Maxwell, Da Costa, Talbot v...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1095 (Link to this contribution) I must make progress, but I shall give way to the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes),...
David Burrowes | 453 c1095 (Link to this contribution) May I press the Solicitor-General further on the up-to-date evidence on the special treatment propos...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1095 (Link to this contribution) It is not a matter of cases benefiting from the rules. The rules will benefit all subsequent cases. ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1099 (Link to this contribution) No. As I have already said, the need to present oral evidence in trials has led the courts to divid...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1099 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I am still dealing with the point raised by the hon. and learned Member for Harborough. It was a ser...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1099 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1100 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has experience of that particular case, and others have had experience in other cases...
Paul Farrelly | 453 c1099-100 (Link to this contribution) I want to intervene on my hon. and learned Friend on the point about the balance and the representat...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1100 (Link to this contribution) No. The hon. Gentleman has traduced my argument quite badly. I did not argue that juries could not u...
David Heath | 453 c1100 (Link to this contribution) Some internal contradictions seem to be opening up in the Solicitor-General’s case. First he said th...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I am still answering the hon. and learned Member for Harborough. If hon. Members calm down a little,...
Humfrey Malins | 453 c1099 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?
David Winnick | 453 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Although I have reservations about this measure, I will vote for it on Second Reading. My great conc...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Complex and serious fraud cases have been a particular problem in the courts for a long time. Murder...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1089-90 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend mentioned the extensive protocol to deal with long fraud cases that came ...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1089 (Link to this contribution) If I understand my hon. Friend correctly, he wants to know if there is any wish by the Government to...
Lord Bellingham | 453 c1089 (Link to this contribution) What is the difference between a very complicated fraud case and a very complicated murder case? For...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1090 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General confirm that the number of cases per annum that will be covered by the pr...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1090 (Link to this contribution) When Roskill made recommendations, the view taken by the Government at the time was that new legisla...
Jonathan Djanogly | 453 c1090 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1090 (Link to this contribution) I am still dealing with the question asked by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Medway (Mr. ...
Philip Davies | 453 c1088 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1088 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. I welcome to yet another debate on this iss...
Philip Davies | 453 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister really saying that he has such a low opinion of the abilities of the great British p...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1089 (Link to this contribution) It is not our case that jurors are not clever enough to understand complex fraud cases. That is a st...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1088 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way in a moment. The Government believe that the criminal justice system needs to be a...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1088 (Link to this contribution) In just a moment. Fraud takes many forms. It can be complex—international fraud, involving vast sum...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the hon. Lady, and I agree with everything that she says. Before she entered t...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 453 c1172 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend set out the elementary checks and balances that exist in inquisitorial systems i...
Richard Shepherd | 453 c1114 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure why the hon. and learned Gentleman says that the Bill will almost certainly fail befor...
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1109 (Link to this contribution) Yes indeed, and it is worth bearing it in mind that, under the Lord Chief Justice’s protocol, trials...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1101-2 (Link to this contribution) In response to the sedentary intervention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I, or rather you,...
Lord Garnier | 453 c1129 (Link to this contribution) That is a mere insult. The hon. Gentleman should meet the point of the argument.
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1091-2 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman bear with me while I reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1096-7 (Link to this contribution) No. The Government’s proposal for judges to try cases without a jury is not a general attack on jur...
Viscount Hailsham | 453 c1154 (Link to this contribution) We should keep it in mind that the Bill also extends to Northern Ireland.
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman invited me to intervene if I disagreed with him. For the record, I think that his...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1146 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 453 c1105 (Link to this contribution) I will give way if the hon. Gentleman’s intervention relates to that point.
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1091 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will give me a little time to proceed with my speech, I suspect that he will f...
Mike O'Brien | 453 c1097 (Link to this contribution) The Attorney-General set all that out in a statement in the other place. If my hon. and learned Frie...
Simon Hughes | 453 c1121 (Link to this contribution) Like the hon. and learned Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) and the hon. Member for Beaconsfi...
Subjects
Civil liberties Criminal proceedings Criminal records Fraud Juries Evidence Drugs Judges Jubilee line Judgements Northern Ireland Prosecutions Terrorism Trials Scheduled offences
Legislation
Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill 2006-07
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk