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Debate on Wednesday, 31 January 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Tony McNulty. The answering member was Lord Herbert of South Downs.

Police

Debate on a motion to approve the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) 2007-08 (HC 207 2006-07). Agreed on question.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
456 c239-85 
Session
2006-07
Department
Home Office
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 456 c261 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before I call the next speaker, I remind Members that Mr. Speaker has placed a 10-minute limi...
Show all contributions (121)
Tony McNulty | 456 c285 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, partly because there are only two minutes left and I promised that I would not ...
Fiona Mactaggart | 456 c268-9 (Link to this contribution) In fact, I have noticed that my constituents make fewer complaints about how the police respond when...
Speaker | 456 c269 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am a little apprehensive about the use of initials in the House. In case everyone does not ...
Colin Breed | 456 c268 (Link to this contribution) I agree that more police can be seen on the street, but the bigger problem arises when people teleph...
Mark Tami | 456 c273-6 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the increase that we have seen this year. Clearly, we would like more. I am sure that ever...
Tony Baldry | 456 c276-7 (Link to this contribution) Policing is probably one of the most—if not the most—important issues to our constituents. For Cherw...
Fiona Mactaggart | 456 c269-71 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Home Office bunches crime and disorder reduction partnerships int...
Anne Milton | 456 c277 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that front-line staff play an absolutely crucial role not only in combatin...
Tony Baldry | 456 c277-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Whether in Guildford, Banbury or Bicester, the fear of crim...
Albert Owen | 456 c278-9 (Link to this contribution) Police funding in the past 15 years has gone through a number of different phases. It has gone from ...
Mark Tami | 456 c279 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the amount that North Wales police has spent on IT is very high, comp...
Albert Owen | 456 c279-80 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. North Wales received specific grants from the Home Office, which it spent well, and that has...
Ian Lucas | 456 c280 (Link to this contribution) My constituents in Wrexham, north Wales, tell me that they strongly think that a 5 per cent. limit, ...
Albert Owen | 456 c280-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We all know that in the 2005 general election, council tax was t...
Chris Ruane | 456 c281 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend concludes, would he consider suggesting to the Minister that police forces wit...
Albert Owen | 456 c281 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the Minister heard my hon. Friend’s plea, which we have made on previous occasions when de...
Tony McNulty | 456 c281-2 (Link to this contribution) When Ministers say that we have had a good debate, they often do not mean it, but I do mean it. The ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c282 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s flow and I am grateful to him for giving way. I agree with hi...
Tony McNulty | 456 c282-5 (Link to this contribution) I will, in all candour. We had hoped that the Association of Police Authorities, the Association of ...
Mark Hunter | 456 c267-8 (Link to this contribution) I have knocked on a fair few doors in my constituency and others over the years, but I have not met ...
John Leech | 456 c267 (Link to this contribution) Has my hon. Friend ever met a single constituent who has told him that they would prefer an identity...
Mark Hunter | 456 c267 (Link to this contribution) I will be happy to confirm the precise figures after the debate, as I do not have them immediately t...
Chris Ruane | 456 c267 (Link to this contribution) I agree about the need to take paperwork away from front-line police officers. In North Wales, in 19...
Mark Hunter | 456 c265-7 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has raised that issue. If he bears with me a little longer, I w...
Mark Tami | 456 c265 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that 3.6 per cent. is not enough. Can he give a round figure that he thinks ...
Mark Hunter | 456 c265 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress, as I am at only the very early stages of my contribution. Such a situ...
Chris Ruane | 456 c264 (Link to this contribution) In case the hon. Gentleman fails to mention it, will he remind the House how many officers there wer...
Paddy Tipping | 456 c261-4 (Link to this contribution) Let me start with the good news. Police numbers in Nottinghamshire are at record levels, and the pol...
Mark Hunter | 456 c264 (Link to this contribution) I would like to preface my contribution by congratulating our police officers and acknowledging the ...
John Leech | 456 c264 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend rightly says, such a loss would be on top of the 200-odd officers whom we have alr...
Mark Hunter | 456 c264 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution, and he is of course absolutely right. It is a matter of...
Tony McNulty | 456 c257 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Council tax does not pay for the police locally; police pre...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c257-8 (Link to this contribution) Of all the fatuous points that the Minister has made so far, that was one of the most fatuous. Of co...
Speaker | 456 c257 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but that is not a point of order. [Interruption.]...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c258-61 (Link to this contribution) I do share my hon. Friend’s concern. There is little point in increasing the number of police office...
Maria Miller | 456 c258 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way to me again. He is being very generous. In my constituency, B...
Tony McNulty | 456 c257 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Colin Breed | 456 c257 (Link to this contribution) I support what the hon. Gentleman says. In the past two years, our previous chief constable went aro...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c257 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. People have paid the increases in council tax, they will pay th...
Tony McNulty | 456 c256 (Link to this contribution) I thought that my use of the word ““erroneous”” covered that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If it did not, I w...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c257 (Link to this contribution) The Minister knows perfectly well that I was talking about cuts in promised police community support...
Speaker | 456 c256 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are careful about the words that we use in debates. Would the hon. Gentleman care to rephr...
Tony McNulty | 456 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman in the middle of his mildly pathetic political rant. I ho...
Chris Ruane | 456 c256 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman put those so-called cuts in historical perspective? Is it true that the pre...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c255 (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. Hampshire and other police authorities up and down the count...
Tony Baldry | 456 c255 (Link to this contribution) Is not there another dimension that has not yet been raised in the debate? Given the overall chaos i...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c256 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why the police have expressed fear that although the ind...
Albert Owen | 456 c254 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been told that police inflation is some 5 per cent. However, a significant pa...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c254-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right: more than 80 per cent. of a police force’s budget is spent on pay. Pay ...
Maria Miller | 456 c255 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has outlined several areas, including my county of Hampshire, that are experiencing g...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 456 c253 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way so soon in his response. As a fellow Sussex Member, h...
Martin Horwood | 456 c254 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the cut in the target for PCSOs. In Gloucestershire...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c253-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree. The consequence of the so-called flexibility that the Minister mentioned is the withdrawal ...
Tony McNulty | 456 c243 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my hon. Friend has had the chance to intervene, because there are very specific circu...
Chris Mole | 456 c243 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend to move away from arguments on distribution. Ipswich witnessed exc...
Tony McNulty | 456 c242-3 (Link to this contribution) Like other Departments, we seek to address those issues, but I take my hon. Friend’s point about the...
Martin Salter | 456 c244 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that although we can celebrate the fact that Thames Valley police has a re...
Tony McNulty | 456 c244 (Link to this contribution) Again, that is an entirely fair point and should form part of the broader debate that we need to hav...
Lembit Opik | 456 c244 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the risk of the debate becoming a surgery for individual complaints and problems, so I s...
Tony McNulty | 456 c243-4 (Link to this contribution) I have a whole answer to get through, rather than just a paragraph or a sentence, before I give way....
John Bercow | 456 c245 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. His charm and courtesy leave my noble Friend Lord Tebb...
Tony McNulty | 456 c244 (Link to this contribution) As a Middlesex MP, a London MP and probably a beneficiary of such a perverse relationship, if indeed...
John Bercow | 456 c245 (Link to this contribution) May I take the hon. Gentleman’s helpful and conciliatory answer to mean that if the hon. Member for ...
Tony McNulty | 456 c245 (Link to this contribution) I was about to be hugely insulted when the hon. Gentleman started, but I was quite complimented by t...
Chris Ruane | 456 c245-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor) mentioned the influence of po...
Tony McNulty | 456 c245 (Link to this contribution) I am happy for the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) to...
Elfyn Llwyd | 456 c246 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the generous amount of time that he is giving to Back Benchers. May I ask h...
Tony McNulty | 456 c246 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me of St. Asaph. It was extremely interesting. Nat...
Tony McNulty | 456 c247 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I shall not, but I hope that Essex and the other police forces w...
Mark Francois | 456 c246-7 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will know that the Essex police force provided support to the Suffolk constabulary duri...
Philip Davies | 456 c247 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Minister is aware that many people in west Yorkshire wonder why we have a needs-b...
Tony McNulty | 456 c249 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to most Members for having made non-emotive and grown-up contributions. Talking about ...
Paul Robert Holmes | 456 c248-9 (Link to this contribution) The fact that I am the third MP from Derbyshire to intervene probably indicates the strength of feel...
Tony McNulty | 456 c248 (Link to this contribution) Bournemouth benefits from the floors and ceilings system rather than losing from it, so I do not kno...
Tobias Ellwood | 456 c248 (Link to this contribution) Bournemouth police are very concerned about the fact that tourism is not included in the formula, as...
Tony McNulty | 456 c248 (Link to this contribution) I take my hon. Friend’s point in the same spirit as I have taken those from other Members. This exte...
Albert Owen | 456 c248 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has talked about population changes. In popular tourist resorts such as my constituency...
Tony McNulty | 456 c247 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman’s second point, but not his point about underfunding. While we might still...
Speaker | 456 c247 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that that is sufficient for the time being.
Christopher Fraser | 456 c249 (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned Norfolk in response to a relevant point raised by my hon. Friend the Member f...
Tony Baldry | 456 c251-2 (Link to this contribution) The Minister went through the various representations that he had received. Earlier in his comments,...
Tony McNulty | 456 c251 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is entirely right that the meeting with the police authority and some MPs from Dy...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c253 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for Policing, Security and Community Safety for setting out the grant settlemen...
Ian Taylor | 456 c250 (Link to this contribution) I made a sedentary intervention earlier and the Minister noted that Surrey is virtually at 50 per ce...
Tony McNulty | 456 c250 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should have been nastier, in that case. To return to my speech—I will respond to individu...
Roger Williams | 456 c251 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the Minister received representations from members of the Dyfed Powys police autho...
Tony McNulty | 456 c250-1 (Link to this contribution) The balance between the two is partly what I have been referring to. I think I mean that in the cont...
Tony McNulty | 456 c239 (Link to this contribution) As a Middlesex MP, I beg to move,"That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2007-08, Hous...
Tony McNulty | 456 c240 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair question, and I shall come on to deal with the issue in detail. I accept that under t...
Tony McNulty | 456 c240 (Link to this contribution) May I finish my sentence? I have, in fact, done so, so I shall give way to the right hon. Member for...
Lord Bellingham | 456 c240 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the Minister will come to police community support officers in a moment, but is he awa...
Tony McNulty | 456 c240 (Link to this contribution) Earlier this week I met a delegation from Norfolk, and they made many of the points that the hon. Ge...
David Heath | 456 c239 (Link to this contribution) I spoke for my party when we considered the relevant Bill and we were very much for them. I do not ...
Tony McNulty | 456 c239-40 (Link to this contribution) If I may, I will come to CSOs in more detail later. I have said to the chair of Avon and Somerset po...
Tony McNulty | 456 c242 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it is quite 50 per cent., actually.
Tony McNulty | 456 c242 (Link to this contribution) Well, there we are; it is not quite 50 per cent. I said that. None the less, there should be a broad...
David Leslie Taylor | 456 c242 (Link to this contribution) There is indeed a good story to tell, as there has been real-terms growth in police funding over rec...
Tony McNulty | 456 c241 (Link to this contribution) With the best will in the world, I have to demur. We are talking about seeking to reduce the impact ...
Humfrey Malins | 456 c241 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the Minister’s approach to the debate. Does he accept that although Surrey has an excel...
Tony McNulty | 456 c242 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that I am known for my sympathy with Surrey, in all respe...
Tony McNulty | 456 c241 (Link to this contribution) May I finish my paragraph—not just a sentence this time—as my answer may affect the questions that h...
Judy Mallaber | 456 c241 (Link to this contribution) The problem in Derbyshire is that the change in the formula has been negated for two years running, ...
Lord McLoughlin | 456 c240 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for finishing his sentence quickly. Police authorities throughout the ...
Fiona Mactaggart | 456 c268 (Link to this contribution) I want to start by expressing my gratitude for the impact that the Government have had on policing i...
Ian Taylor | 456 c271-3 (Link to this contribution) The Minister was benign and positive during his opening speech, and we were grateful for that, altho...
Mark Hunter | 456 c264 (Link to this contribution) I regret to say that I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was a Member of the House at that time...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c256 (Link to this contribution) No, it is not true that there was a cut in police officers. There was a rise in the number of police...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 456 c254 (Link to this contribution) I agree. The Metropolitan Police Authority received the lion’s share of the remaining funding, altho...
Tony McNulty | 456 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but every single PCSO in Norfolk would not be there without the investment, resources and polic...
Tony McNulty | 456 c252-3 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, that argument works only if police authorities are ...
David Heath | 456 c239 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that there is considerable anxiety in several police authority areas—not le...
Tony McNulty | 456 c246 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a fair point, which the formula seeks to address in the general sense of popula...
Subjects
Crime prevention Crime Association of Chief Police Officers Finance Police Recruitment Police authorities Police community support officers Standards
Link
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