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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Tuesday, 8 January 2008, in the House of Lords.

Children and Young Persons Bill [HL]

Children and Young Persons Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to, with clause 3 agreed to as amended. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
697 c261-328GC 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department for Children, Schools and Families
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2008-0081
Monday, 14 January 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Adonis | 697 c299GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that, in this instance, I can give the noble Baroness the complete reassurance that she seeks...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c312GC (Link to this contribution) First, I acknowledge the work of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, in pressing the cause of social work...
Show all contributions (125)
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c318-9GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment from this side of the Committee. Last night, we had an effective debate on a...
Lord Judd | 697 c319GC (Link to this contribution) I wish to add a postscript to what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said. He referred to studying th...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 697 c319GC (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak on this, but I cannot resist the gauntlet laid down by the noble Lord, L...
Lord Judd | 697 c317-8GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly commend the amendment. I agree that it may not be altogether appropriate to insert it in ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 697 c318GC (Link to this contribution) I support this concept, although I agree that it should not be in the Bill. The huge support that un...
Lord Ramsbotham | 697 c318GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may add my support for this idea, although I do not know that it necessarily should be in ...
Lord Adonis | 697 c320GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 8: 8: Clause 5, page 4, line 31, column 2, leave out ““social services”” and i...
Lord Adonis | 697 c324GC (Link to this contribution) My point is the same as the one that I made in response to the noble Baroness earlier: there is noth...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c325GC (Link to this contribution) There is just the small matter of money. Although the Minister said that local authorities have huge...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c328GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear that, but we are currently not totally satisfied with the answers we have had...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 697 c279GC (Link to this contribution) May I make a point of crushing simplicity to which I should have referred in the rather rambling rem...
Lord Judd | 697 c278-9GC (Link to this contribution) I make a fairly obvious point in urging my noble friend, in considering what has been said to these ...
Lord Adonis | 697 c275-7GC (Link to this contribution) That is my understanding. If there is anything I need to clarify further, I will do so. In addition...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 697 c278GC (Link to this contribution) The reason there are fewer referrals to the Cassel hospital, or, indeed, to any other family therapy...
Lord Adonis | 697 c278GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to consider the issue further but the Government’s view is that the provisions in Section...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 697 c279-80GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his thorough explanation and his customary constructive engagement. I thank...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c280-2GC (Link to this contribution) I have a very benevolent view of this Bill, although I have two principal complaints. One is that it...
Lord Hylton | 697 c288GC (Link to this contribution) Speaking as a complete layman in these matters, I support the anxieties that have been expressed abo...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c262-3GC (Link to this contribution) I will speak to Amendment No. 26 in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Walmsley and the noble ...
Lord Colwyn | 697 c261GC (Link to this contribution) It is very unlikely, but if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee w...
Lord Rix | 697 c272-3GC (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak on these amendments, but the mention of washing machines on two occasion...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 697 c273GC (Link to this contribution) Would Members allow me to do so in three sentences? I do not want to take up the Committee’s time. T...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c269-70GC (Link to this contribution) I offer my profound apologies for not being able to be here when the debate began. There has also be...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c290GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend. I was just reflecting on the experience in the prison system, where there h...
Lord Adonis | 697 c291-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness made several references; one of them was to the proposal for social work practice...
Lord Adonis | 697 c293GC (Link to this contribution) I stress that we would proceed further only after an independent evaluation—
Lord Adonis | 697 c293GC (Link to this contribution) And on the basis that local authorities would themselves have to undertake the commissioning. So thi...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c294GC (Link to this contribution) Will the amount of financial support per child looked after be comparable?
Lord Judd | 697 c302GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I am sure that I am speaking out of turn, so I am very grateful to the Mini...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c297-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord for that detailed response to these concerns raised by me and o...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c298-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Clause 2, page 3, line 21, at end insert— ““( ) A local authority must n...
Lord Adonis | 697 c308-9GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will forgive me, I shall deal with the custody issues when we co...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c304-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5: 5: Clause 3, page 3, line 47, at end insert— ““( ) The provider of social w...
Lord Adonis | 697 c303-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4: 4: Clause 3, page 3, line 33, leave out ““which is”” and insert ““if the ac...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c303GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister, to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and to the noble and learned Baron...
Lord Adonis | 697 c302-3GC (Link to this contribution) We should take very seriously indeed anything said about the law by the noble and learned Baroness, ...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 697 c307GC (Link to this contribution) There is much merit in the idea that social work services co-operate with other agencies where it is...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c306-7GC (Link to this contribution) Although I agree absolutely with my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham, that was not the point that I was ...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 697 c311-2GC (Link to this contribution) In the spirit of solidarity which, as we know, reigns among the independent Cross-Bench Peers in the...
Lord Rix | 697 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as chancellor of the University of East London. Does the Minister believe that...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c320GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his helpful response. I am sure that we all look forward to receiving that ...
Lord Adonis | 697 c325GC (Link to this contribution) I fear that we are going slightly round in circles. Because it is an extremely small sum, as the nob...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c325GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises precisely the point that I was going to raise with the Minister. I raised ...
Lord Adonis | 697 c325-6GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should say a little more about evaluation and controls. On pages 48 and 49 of Consistent C...
Lord Adonis | 697 c326GC (Link to this contribution) I entirely disagree with that point. There is nothing to stop one of the more successful local autho...
Lord Adonis | 697 c328GC (Link to this contribution) I would expect the evaluation to cover all the points that the noble Baroness has just mentioned.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c327-8GC (Link to this contribution) In view of the time, we have probably been around this one for long enough. But, actually, the Minis...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c278GC (Link to this contribution) With the Minister’s indulgence, I return to Section 17 of the Children Act, which I believe is clear...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c275GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can ask the Minister for clarification on that point. Many local authorities work with vol...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c277GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister seemed to indicate earlier that the 1989 Act provides for local authorities to have gen...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c285-6GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak only briefly because I said a great deal of what I want to say at Second Reading, but ...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c286-8GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak briefly on this important amendment. I very much support the noble Baroness, Lady Walm...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c265-6GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the Bill, despite what I said at Second Reading, to which I shall return from time t...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c264-5GC (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 26, to which my name is attached, and the general principle behind these ame...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 697 c264GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendments and even more so in the light of the comments of the noble Baronesses...
Baroness Massey of Darwen | 697 c263-4GC (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 18, to which I have added my name. I also support much of what the noble Bar...
Baroness Murphy | 697 c267-8GC (Link to this contribution) I follow on from that point. I also did not speak at Second Reading, for which I apologise, but have...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 697 c268-9GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, wholeheartedly welcome the Bill. It is a progressive and imaginative piece of legislation. O...
Lord Judd | 697 c271-2GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. I say at the outset, because it is early in our proceedi...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 697 c266-7GC (Link to this contribution) I start by saying how sad I was not to be present for Second Reading; I was obliged to be elsewhere....
Lord Adonis | 697 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I am reassured by the noble Baroness's remark that she is not opposed to the pilot schemes. I took t...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I have the feeling that I am speaking for others, too, but I am not against the idea of pilots. I am...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I have just checked my notes, and I referred at the beginning, the end and several times in the midd...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c292-3GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can make one more point before the noble Lord continues. Clause 4 ends the piloting period...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c296GC (Link to this contribution) I beg the Minister’s pardon for intervening at this point, but I should like further clarification. ...
Lord Adonis | 697 c296GC (Link to this contribution) To clarify the first point, it is £2 million for all the pilots each year. We are talking about £6 m...
Lord Adonis | 697 c295GC (Link to this contribution) I entirely accept the noble Baroness’s point—not about my not being a Minister tomorrow; it is only ...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c294-5GC (Link to this contribution) The thing that continues to concern me, and perhaps some of my colleagues, is exactly how much of th...
Lord Adonis | 697 c294GC (Link to this contribution) Because that support varies between authorities depending on how much they choose to spend on it, I ...
Lord Adonis | 697 c293-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that it is in the Printed Paper Office, but because I am always anxious to provide the max...
Lord Adonis | 697 c297GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord for those remarks, but before I conclude I should like to deal ...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c299GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for that reply, which gives us the reassurance that we were looki...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c307GC (Link to this contribution) I agree that as the wording stands, it shall be a duty. We have some sympathy with what the noble Ba...
Lord Ramsbotham | 697 c306GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. I am one of the people who were unable to attend Second Reading, and ...
Lord Judd | 697 c305-6GC (Link to this contribution) I warmly support the amendment and I again hope that my noble friend will be able to take its spirit...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c309GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for the clarity of his reply. I accept that it is perhaps not appropri...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c309-11GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6: 6: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— ““Social work: employme...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 697 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I declare some sort of interest. Up to a few weeks ago, I was president of the University of Wales a...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 697 c323GC (Link to this contribution) It may not be necessary for me to intervene here but it seems to me that there is a simple answer to...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c323GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister replies, I will give him a little more breathing space. I have one question. Rea...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c322-3GC (Link to this contribution) I found this section rather incomprehensible, so I am reassured that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp,...
Lord Adonis | 697 c324GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, they will continue in that period through to subsequent years.
Lord Adonis | 697 c323-4GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can provide crystal clear illumination on the question of dates. Clause 6(2) allows fo...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 697 c324GC (Link to this contribution) I got completely confused—I hope that I am the only person who did. What will happen to the pilot lo...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c324GC (Link to this contribution) On a point of information, we managed in the previous debate to reach an understanding that the tota...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c326GC (Link to this contribution) That is precisely one of my concerns. The plan is to compare these pilots, with the injection of pum...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c326GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may press the Minister further. It is not the local authorities who seek to pilot this pro...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 697 c328GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Monday 14 January at 3.30 pm.
Lord Adonis | 697 c278GC (Link to this contribution) I will, of course, bear that point in mind. I have just been passed a note that states that there is...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c288-9GC (Link to this contribution) May I make one comment on what my noble friend Lady Meacher said about bureaucracy? To my mind, tryi...
Lord Ramsbotham | 697 c288GC (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I echo the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. I will quote one example to illust...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c289-90GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Earl that social work is a challenging and difficult job. That has never been...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c282-5GC (Link to this contribution) I have kept my powder dry up to this point, if not my paper handkerchiefs. I enthusiastically welcom...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 697 c285GC (Link to this contribution) As I said at Second Reading, it is vital for children and young people to know their social worker a...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c266GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, needs one too. I go back to family group conferencing. T...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 697 c261-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, at end insert ““but only after sufficient prov...
Lord Adonis | 697 c273-5GC (Link to this contribution) First, I reciprocate the new year good wishes offered by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, and extend...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 697 c272GC (Link to this contribution) I have the instinct that perhaps we are coming to the end of this pre-legislative part of the Bill a...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 697 c273GC (Link to this contribution) I ask my noble friend Lady Butler-Sloss to tell Members of the Committee a little more about the clo...
Lord Adonis | 697 c290-1GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an extremely useful debate on social work practices. I hope that I am able to provide ...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c293GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reassurance.
Lord Adonis | 697 c296GC (Link to this contribution) It happens to be the opening clauses. Perhaps I should apologise to the Committee for the fact that ...
Baroness Meacher | 697 c295GC (Link to this contribution) I want to raise a point of clarification. The Minister said that the money is a very small amount in...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 697 c293GC (Link to this contribution) Clearly, there has been a lot of concern in this area, but I have not seen—perhaps others may not—Ju...
Lord Adonis | 697 c301-2GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can give a complete reassurance to the noble Baroness on this issue. The view of the G...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 697 c302GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Judd. Although the intentions of government, particularly in relation...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 697 c296-7GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to make a narrow but significant point. I was very much taken aback when the noble Bar...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c299-301GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: 3: Clause 3, page 3, line 27, at end insert— ““(1A) Any provider of social ...
Lord Adonis | 697 c314-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl need make no apology for raising this important issue, which is central to everything...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c315GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister most sincerely for the good news that he has given on the progress of the refor...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 697 c313GC (Link to this contribution) What is being expressed here is clearly crucially important. It underlines some of the previously ou...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 697 c313-4GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, knows that this is a matter close to our heart and one that we gave g...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c312-3GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, very much welcome the sentiments which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has highlighted in his...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c316-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: 7: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— ““Social work providers...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 697 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as chancellor of the University of the West of England, which teaches a consid...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c319GC (Link to this contribution) I feel the need to point out that social work led some of these issues in the 1970s, and that we hav...
Lord Adonis | 697 c319-20GC (Link to this contribution) Relationships between social work employers and universities are critical, especially, but not only,...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 697 c320-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9: 9: Clause 6, page 5, line 1, leave out ““five”” and insert ““three”” The n...
Lord Adonis | 697 c326-7GC (Link to this contribution) With great respect to the noble Earl, we will be running a competition for engagement in the pilots,...
Lord Adonis | 697 c327GC (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that we are dependent on those who apply. We are talking about a small number of pilots,...
Baroness Walmsley | 697 c327GC (Link to this contribution) There is going to be a competition. How are the Government going to ensure that the range of local a...
Baroness Crawley | 697 c328GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn.
Subjects
Children Conditions of employment Contracts Children in care Career development Finance Pilot schemes Mental health services Universities Training Young people Social services Social work Social workers Care leavers
Legislation
Children and Young Persons Bill (HL) 2007-08
Link
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