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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 30 January 2008, in the House of Lords.

Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Bill [HL]

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
698 c327-78GC 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2008-0727
Thursday, 13 March 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2008-0729
Thursday, 13 March 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord De Mauley | 698 c366GC (Link to this contribution) I support Amendments Nos. 118 and 119 tabled by my noble friend Lord Goodlad. They tackle the import...
Lord Colwyn | 698 c378GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Wednesday 6 February at 3.45 pm.
Show all contributions (126)
Lord Razzall | 698 c347GC (Link to this contribution) I shall read what the Minister said in Hansard, but, as he said, there is not much between us on thi...
Lord Bach | 698 c350-1GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 110A, 111 and 111ZA propose additions to Schedule 5. Prior to the Bill being introdu...
Lord Razzall | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has lifted a further veil on the Government’s position, because what we have been told ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c356GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister, but must confess that I am currently quite confused. I had thoug...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution) Is it a summary of the Minister’s reply to say that a fixed monetary penalty can vary?
Lord De Mauley | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 121: 121: Clause 38, page 15, line 35, leave out ““requiring”” and insert ““of...
Baroness Wilcox | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 128 is there, and my noble friend does not want to intervene.
Lord De Mauley | 698 c371-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister. I was not raising a new point; all I was saying was that our vie...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c372GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 122: 122: Clause 38, page 15, line 36, at end insert— ““( ) where the person o...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution) The requirement for the sanction to be notified through the primary authority to the head office. I ...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. We have gone far enough with this, and I beg leave to withdraw the am...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c362GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his answer and I thank all other noble Lords who have taken part in the deb...
Lord Goodlad | 698 c362-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 118: 118: Clause 38, page 15, line 32, leave out from ““(2)”” to end of line 3...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c365GC (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments wholeheartedly, but in particular subsection 7 of Amendment No. 119 becau...
Lord Bach | 698 c366-8GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, for coming both in his own right and as c...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c365GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. The words, "““the grounds for imposing the monetary penalty””" appea...
Lord Goodlad | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the thoroughness with which he has answered this debate, but I fear that he...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 120: 120: Clause 38, page 15, line 34, leave out from ““results”” to end of li...
Lord Bach | 698 c374-5GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment is very similar in many ways to that which we have just discussed in the name of the ...
Lord Bach | 698 c360GC (Link to this contribution) If they went for a fixed monetary penalty, which is what we are saying should happen, and if they fe...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c360GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister was talking about some very minor offences. I thought that we lived in a world in which...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution) I am using the word prosecution to mean penalties. Perhaps I should start to call them administrativ...
Lord Bach | 698 c359GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 113 and 116 are similar in nature to the government amendments that I have spoken to...
Lord Razzall | 698 c359GC (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords will see that my name is added to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley. He ha...
Viscount Eccles | 698 c359GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder if this is an appropriate place to seek some clarification. Are we also talking about indiv...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c358-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113: 113: Clause 37, page 15, line 25, leave out ““Where the relevant offence”...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c343GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 106: 106: Clause 34, page 14, line 21, leave out subsection (3) The noble Lor...
Lord Berkeley | 698 c347-8GC (Link to this contribution) I found the six regulators in Amendment No. 111 in the list of major economic regulators. Like the n...
Lord Razzall | 698 c347GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110A: 110A: Schedule 5, page 47, line 18, at end insert— ““Gas and Electricity...
Lord Bach | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl is quite right to return to this, because I did not cover it before. It depends wheth...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to nitpick, but if the Government do not yet know which ministries have which powers f...
Lord Berkeley | 698 c351GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could pose a supplementary question. The Minister kindly mentioned the Civil Aviation Auth...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; it should have been the Animal Health Act 2002. There are lots of animals around these d...
Lord Bach | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution) The reason why they are there, I am advised, is because there may be other regulators that are in Sc...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112: 112: Clause 37, page 15, line 24, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Lord...
Lord Bach | 698 c370GC (Link to this contribution) That makes it tempting in itself, but I will resist. We believe that fixed monetary penalties would ...
Lord Desai | 698 c370GC (Link to this contribution) The Bill is trying to simplify procedure and speed matters up. These amendments are trying to get ba...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister asking purely about the issue of oral and written representations raised by Amendmen...
Lord Bach | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution) That is Amendment No. 128, but when the noble Lord moved Amendment No. 121, my concentration slipped...
Lord Bach | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution) That would be done through holding a database of primary authority partnerships, including a contact...
Lord Bach | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution) To which requirement does the noble Lord refer?
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 125: 125: Clause 38, page 15, line 38, after ““notice””)”” insert ““within 28 ...
Viscount Eccles | 698 c362GC (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the noble Lord, and certainly my boundary is set at a much lower figure than t...
Lord Bach | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution) Let me be candid with the noble Viscount, who has introduced a very important point. I do not know t...
Lord Razzall | 698 c363-4GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, which also stands in my name and t...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c364-5GC (Link to this contribution) I see that four amendments of mine to Clause 41 have been grouped with this. I do not know whether t...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution) What can they do under Clause 41(4)(b), which is totally unspecified? Can the noble Lord give me som...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c368GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord dealt with part of my point. I do not think that he is correct, because it is a negot...
Lord Bach | 698 c368-9GC (Link to this contribution) If they make a mistake, as can happen with any notice of intent, the regulator party has a defence, ...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c377GC (Link to this contribution) We of course support Amendment No. 134. We also support Amendments Nos. 144 and 154. Amendment No. 1...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c375GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response. He has given me some food for thought, particularly as to the...
Lord Bach | 698 c376GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the noble and learned Lord was content with what I said about grounds. Let me just...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c359GC (Link to this contribution) Could the Minister give us a couple of examples?
Lord Bach | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution) It certainly is not in our mind. Indeed, the whole argument about this is that there will not be pro...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c360GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to go on with this too long, but I was really picking up what the Minister was saying ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c358GC (Link to this contribution) From what the Minister says, unless the guidance to be given under the prescribed criteria is rather...
Lord Bach | 698 c358GC (Link to this contribution) That is the variable monetary penalty. No one has suggested that a fixed monetary penalty is a discr...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord cannot be right. Clause 40(3) states: "““For the purposes of this Part””—" which inc...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c358GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for battling through this rather complicated area. In passing, the con...
Baroness Wilcox | 698 c335-6GC (Link to this contribution) I share the concern of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of Markyate, about this part of the Bi...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c344GC (Link to this contribution) I thought that the Minister made half a case for not moving this provision to Clause 59, but not muc...
Baroness Wilcox | 698 c343GC (Link to this contribution) I fully support my noble friend Lord Cope in these two amendments. They move the requirement to make...
Lord Bach | 698 c347GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110: 110: Schedule 5, page 47, leave out line 8 The noble Lord said: This ame...
Baroness Wilcox | 698 c349-50GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 111A is in this group. It is a drafting amendment to ensure consistency within the Bil...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c345-6GC (Link to this contribution) Before I start on Amendment No. 108, which is tabled in my name, I shall say that I support Amendmen...
Lord Bach | 698 c346-7GC (Link to this contribution) I start by welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, to his place in this Committee. His colleague the...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord mentioned animals. There is a relationship between the Animal Health Act 2002 and the...
Lord Bach | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord raises a fair point, but we do not just have the consultation, hear what the national...
Lord Razzall | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution) We have listened to what the Minister said, which seems to raise a point of principle, not just of d...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c351GC (Link to this contribution) When one looks at the comparisons of Acts and Bills, and one takes the Office of Gas and Electricity...
Lord Razzall | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution) That was the point that I was going to make. We do not really want the Minister’s officials to empty...
Lord Berkeley | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, it would be very helpful in this long letter that he is going to s...
Lord Bach | 698 c355-6GC (Link to this contribution) On Amendment No. 112, the Bill allows some flexibility in the calculation of fixed monetary penaltie...
Lord Bach | 698 c356-7GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I am not, but I take the noble and learned Lord’s point. For example, a minor breach of ...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution) Not on that, but did I hear the noble Lord, Lord Bach, right, when he said that if you go down the m...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c370-1GC (Link to this contribution) When the Minister was speaking, I got nervous when he talked about quick sanctions that could be sla...
Lord Bach | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord fairly said when moving this amendment, we have been here before, and I am going t...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c372GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister. What he suggests sounds like a very sensible compromise. In what...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to labour the point. The Minister has explained the mechanics. What he has not explained ...
Lord Bach | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, on this occasion it would be part of the system that would be administratively s...
Lord Bach | 698 c373-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his efforts in attempting to ensure the right balance is struck between p...
Lord Bach | 698 c372GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for raising the issue. I understand the concern he raises that multi-site bus...
Lord Desai | 698 c362GC (Link to this contribution) Surely the boundary would be a different amount of money for different people and different offences...
Lord Bach | 698 c362GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 114 and 115: 114: Clause 37, page 15, line 26, leave out ““only”” and insert...
Viscount Eccles | 698 c361-2GC (Link to this contribution) Let me reinforce my earlier point. Among the public there is a willingness to accept that it may be ...
Lord Bach | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that the purpose of subsection (4)(b) is to allow new defences to be created against th...
Lord Colwyn | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution) I point out to the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not call Amendments Nos. 1...
Lord Razzall | 698 c376-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 134: 134: Clause 39, page 16, line 32, leave out from second ““a”” to end of l...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c376GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that answer. There is still some residual worry. I find it difficult to spo...
Lord Bach | 698 c377-8GC (Link to this contribution) Turning first to Amendments Nos. 134, 144 and 151, we understand the concerns that noble Lords have ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c375-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 132: 132: Clause 38, page 16, line 5, at end insert ““and all relevant facts a...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c374GC (Link to this contribution) That is extremely helpful of the Minister in both cases. I am not sure I quite understand the reason...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c374GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 126: 126: Clause 38, page 15, line 38, after ““to”” insert ““request an indepe...
Lord Razzall | 698 c378GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment to Clause 39 is of a slightly different nature to the other two amendments that the no...
Lord Bach | 698 c360GC (Link to this contribution) There are many either-way offences on the statute book. It might be that one of those offences may n...
Viscount Eccles | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution) Can I pursue the redundant fridge for a moment? Am I right to understand that the clause and the Bil...
Lord Bach | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution) I understand. It will be very important that local authorities, the regulators in this field, do not...
Lord Bach | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 51 begins, ““Provision under section 40””, which is where discretionary requirements appear i...
Lord Bach | 698 c358GC (Link to this contribution) We have been over why we think that it is better for good regulation to follow the Macrory principle...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c327-32GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 104: 104: Clause 34, page 14, line 16, leave out paragraph (b) The noble and ...
Baroness Fookes | 698 c327GC (Link to this contribution) I make the usual reminder that if there is a Division in the Chamber, the Committee will adjourn imm...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c332-5GC (Link to this contribution) I can see that in some cases it may be quite easy to say that you are sure that there is guilt. If t...
Lord Bach | 698 c344GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for moving his amendment. We understand that bringing symmetry from Parts 1, ...
Baroness Fookes | 698 c343GC (Link to this contribution) I should point out that if the amendment were to be carried, I could not call Amendment No. 107 by r...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c342-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for a very full and careful answer and for the promise of further information. ...
Lord Bach | 698 c338-42GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a very welcome debate, and the Committee will be grateful to the noble and learned Lor...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c337-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am not capable of adding to the great constitutional arguments advanced by my noble and learned fr...
Lord Borrie | 698 c336-7GC (Link to this contribution) We have listened to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, with tremendous interest. It was a brill...
Lord Desai | 698 c337GC (Link to this contribution) The situation is not as the noble Baroness has described. It is not that I do not like transparency,...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c349GC (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, I was interested in the match, or lack of it, between Schedule 5...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c348-9GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Committee for having 11 pages of amendments. I was so pleased with the noble Lord...
Lord Razzall | 698 c344-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 107: 107: Clause 34, page 14, line 21, after ““instrument”” insert ““and shall...
Lord Bach | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution) I have to say that my knowledge does not compare to that of the noble Lord. I will of course have th...
Lord Bach | 698 c351GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that we are in danger of falling between two stools. In answer to both noble Lords, w...
Lord Bach | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution) It was already going to be a long letter—it is now going to have an extra paragraph. I know that the...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord does that, perhaps I may ask a question. The Housing Corporation is one of the...
Lord Bach | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution) I am forced into the position—although I hope that I do not do so reluctantly—of saying that we will...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, I do not quite understand why the water and gas Acts are in Schedules 6 and 7, which b...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c355GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to my Amendment No. 117 in this group. Currently, the Bill says, "““the amount of the ...
Lord Bach | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution) It will not be £20 in every case. If it is not £20 in every case, the answer to the noble Lord’s que...
Lord Bach | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution) Let me find Clause 51. As I understand it, Clause 51 does not apply to the fixed monetary penalty; i...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution) I simply do not understand it. We are dealing with the part of the Bill that starts with Clause 40 o...
Subjects
Courts Business Civil proceedings Civil Aviation Authority Enforcement Fixed penalties Ofgem Fines Regulation Local Better Regulation Office Stop notices
Legislation
European Communities Act 1972
Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Bill (HL) 2007-08
Link
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