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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 6 May 2008, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hanson of Flint. The answering member was Lord Garnier.

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Programme motion (No 4) for proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments and subsequent stages. Agreed to on Question. Lords Amendments considered. Lords amendments Nos 9, 301, 327, 86, 285, 115, 173, 117, 127 disagreed to and amendments made in lieu. Lords amendments Nos 88, 89 agreed to as amended. Lords amendments Nos 285 and 173 dsagreed to. Lords amendments Nos 1 to 8, 10 to 85, 87, 90 to 114, 116, 150 to 172, 174 to 284, 286 to 300, 302 to 326 and 328 to 348 agreed to. Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their Amendments 173 and 285. Committee reported and Reasons agreed to. Message to the Lords to communicate said Reasons, with the Bill and amendments.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
475 c573-670 
Session
2007-08
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Lords amendments
Procedure
Programme motions
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Evan Harris | 475 c642 (Link to this contribution) I am curious about the letter from the archbishops, and I would be grateful if the hon. and learned ...
Show all contributions (244)
Lord Garnier | 475 c590 (Link to this contribution) I can see what the Minister is trying to do, in having one more shot in relation to the lifting of t...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c590-1 (Link to this contribution) As I said to the hon. and learned Gentleman in my opening remarks, we have had some time to assess t...
Lord Garnier | 475 c590 (Link to this contribution) They are all listening to us now.
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c590 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I remind the House that clause 10 amends section 189 of the 2003 Act so as to abolish t...
Lord Garnier | 475 c589 (Link to this contribution) Is there not another way of looking at the matter? The hon. Gentleman and I have both mentioned the ...
David Howarth | 475 c587-9 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. and learned Gentleman says, that happens most of the time, but we do not know whether th...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c589 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's intervention. I simply felt that a wider audience was needed ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c589 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for our short debate, and I must respond to the point that the hon. Member for Cambrid...
David Howarth | 475 c589 (Link to this contribution) There are always challenges in that area. One difficulty with the new suspended sentence order is th...
Maria Eagle | 475 c601-2 (Link to this contribution) I understand what the right hon. Lady says, but I am not one who thinks that putting things that are...
Lord Cormack | 475 c602 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is trying to deal with the issue moderately and reasonably, and we are grateful for th...
Maria Eagle | 475 c602 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman's point, and I understand the concerns that those who are investigat...
Speaker | 475 c591 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Speaker | 475 c599 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to take Government amendments (a) to (c) in lieu thereof.
Maria Eagle | 475 c599 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Andrew Selous | 475 c600 (Link to this contribution) We all agree that no one should be abused for their lifestyle, but the Minister keeps mentioning bal...
Maria Eagle | 475 c600 (Link to this contribution) The question before us is an important one. The purpose of the offence that we are considering is to...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c601 (Link to this contribution) The cases cited by my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) did not rea...
Maria Eagle | 475 c600-1 (Link to this contribution) I agree about the need to strike an appropriate balance. I began my remarks by saying that there was...
Lord Garnier | 475 c587 (Link to this contribution) What the hon. Gentleman suggests is unlikely to be the case. Prosecutors often reduce the charge to ...
Maria Eagle | 475 c584 (Link to this contribution) You are spoiling the consensus!
Lord Garnier | 475 c584 (Link to this contribution) If the Under-Secretary demonstrated her point by leaping to the Dispatch Box and saying, ““Goodness ...
Andrew Miller | 475 c584-5 (Link to this contribution) I start by referring to the issue on which the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) ...
David Howarth | 475 c586-7 (Link to this contribution) This is one of those debates where nearly everyone agrees about the objectives but disagrees about h...
Lord Garnier | 475 c582-3 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I think I do. I am not sure which part of my remarks that intervention touches on. No doubt the...
Andrew Miller | 475 c582 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening carefully to the hon. and learned Gentleman. He spoke of weapons in the armour...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c583 (Link to this contribution) The point that I am making is that whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision and whether or not...
Lord Garnier | 475 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is nothing if not disarming. During the course of his 36-minute speech, he told us on t...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c573-4 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was listening so intently that I almost forgot my part in the script. May...
David Howarth | 475 c574 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that there had been no equivalent drop in immediate imprisonment, but does he not ...
Speaker | 475 c573 (Link to this contribution) With this we may discuss Government amendment (a) to the words so restored to the Bill, Lords amendm...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c578-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very valid point. In some cases, it is more difficult for the offender, becau...
Lord Garnier | 475 c579 (Link to this contribution) You will probably agree with me.
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c574-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Let us look at the figures for magistrates...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c579-80 (Link to this contribution) I shall not say that I do not intend to listen. I began my introduction to this group of amendments...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c579 (Link to this contribution) That is for another day, dare I say it. The key point is that however we have reached where we are—t...
John Bercow | 475 c665 (Link to this contribution) It would be a bit rich for people who are passionate believers in the sovereignty of Parliament to m...
Maria Eagle | 475 c665-6 (Link to this contribution) I think that all of us in this place believe strongly in the sovereignty of Parliament, because if w...
Richard Bacon | 475 c665 (Link to this contribution) They have done so because it is part of their secularisation agenda. Some people think that, for eve...
Maria Eagle | 475 c665 (Link to this contribution) This has been an excellent and enjoyable debate. Many contributions have been made, from a wide rang...
Edward Leigh | 475 c665 (Link to this contribution) Ministers use that argument many times. There are tens of thousands of lines of legislation and laws...
Maria Eagle | 475 c666-7 (Link to this contribution) As far as I am aware, we Government Members are on a whipped vote, but Members will vote whichever w...
William Cash | 475 c666 (Link to this contribution) The Minister makes great play of the importance of making sure that there is no unfairness in the ex...
John Hayes | 475 c661 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend invite those who have spoken in the opposite cause to the one that he is articul...
John Bercow | 475 c662 (Link to this contribution) I thought you believed in free speech.
Gerald Howarth | 475 c662 (Link to this contribution) I do believe in free speech, but I think that my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk, who has b...
Richard Bacon | 475 c662-4 (Link to this contribution) I was not originally going to speak in this debate, because I came along just to listen. I listened ...
David Howarth | 475 c664 (Link to this contribution) What I think is wrong is to use the state to define identity. It is perfectly natural to use religio...
Gerald Howarth | 475 c664 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will be delighted to know that a group of us sent him a message of solidarity from th...
Mark Pritchard | 475 c659 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman like to put on record his view? Does he believe that personal faith and rel...
Evan Harris | 475 c658-9 (Link to this contribution) I understand that there are two parts to any law, unless I missed something in my limited legal educ...
Julian Lewis | 475 c658 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been very generous in giving way. Surely the problem with countries such as S...
Evan Harris | 475 c657-8 (Link to this contribution) I look forward to that, if it ever happens. The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) and the ho...
William Cash | 475 c660 (Link to this contribution) Would my hon. Friend be kind enough to give way?
Gerald Howarth | 475 c660 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend is going to be brief, I will give way.
Evan Harris | 475 c659 (Link to this contribution) I think that religion is a matter for the individual, the home, the church, the family and social cl...
Gerald Howarth | 475 c659-60 (Link to this contribution) I am a simple sort of chap, and a member of the Church of England. I think I am the first member of ...
William Cash | 475 c660 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. Does my hon. Friend not agree that there was a time when we were intolerant on b...
Gerald Howarth | 475 c660-1 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I do agree with that, but I am not going back to Tudor times, if my hon. Friend will forgive me...
Evan Harris | 475 c655 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I agree. It was also historic when the Lords passed the amendment, but that evening was app...
Evan Harris | 475 c655 (Link to this contribution) I was about to come on to that. This is the third intervention in which the hon. Gentleman has made ...
William Cash | 475 c655 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may recall that I referred to the Wingrove case. In that case, the European conve...
Julian Lewis | 475 c657 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman's case not the opposite to that made by the hon. Member for Cambridge (David H...
Evan Harris | 475 c657 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept the words that the hon. Gentleman ascribes to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridg...
David Howarth | 475 c657 (Link to this contribution) I intervene only to say that if my hon. Friend ever hears me use the phrase ““send a signal”” he wil...
William Cash | 475 c656 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may be prepared to concede that the Wingrove case took place in 1996, which is no...
Evan Harris | 475 c656 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to be diverted to the merits of the judgments of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, ...
Julian Lewis | 475 c656 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an important point, but I do not think he has addressed the concern fel...
Evan Harris | 475 c656-7 (Link to this contribution) I ask for patience, because I can deal with only one point at a time. The right hon. Member for Maid...
Richard Bacon | 475 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) Well, I sent him a message of solidarity from his office, which had a ceiling as high as the one in ...
Speaker | 475 c573 (Link to this contribution) I must draw the House's attention to the fact that privilege is involved in Lords amendments Nos. 92...
Maria Eagle | 475 c613 (Link to this contribution) Such preachers and bishops have been investigated for offences with a much lower threshold. The publ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c605 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for how she has explained the Government's position on the Lords amend...
Speaker | 475 c628 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to take Government amendment (a) in lieu thereof.
Lord Beith | 475 c619 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has rather weakened his argument by adding the words ““or else”” to the words in the ...
Evan Harris | 475 c616-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a privilege to listen to and follow the right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Wi...
Lord Garnier | 475 c583-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister's intervention. It cannot be gainsaid that whatever the Government do...
Evan Harris | 475 c607 (Link to this contribution) The amendment introduces confusion. It says that"““the urging of persons to refrain from””" certain...
David Howarth | 475 c589 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way. This is an instance in which the new procedure, in Committee, o...
Lord Garnier | 475 c602 (Link to this contribution) I fully accept the Minister's point that the Attorney-General is, by implication, required to take i...
William Cash | 475 c651-2 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. That is the reason I am speaking on this point. The secularisation of our society ...
David Howarth | 475 c645 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed, and 10 per cent. of people go to church, and as the Bishops pointed out in the equivale...
William Cash | 475 c646 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman places great emphasis on the question whether the issue is a Christian one. Does ...
David Howarth | 475 c646 (Link to this contribution) I am fascinated that the hon. Gentleman appears to be proposing a new criminal offence based on the ...
Edward Leigh | 475 c646 (Link to this contribution) So the hon. Gentleman believes that the state has no right to impose Acts of Parliament dealing with...
David Howarth | 475 c644-5 (Link to this contribution) The battles in the House historically between the Conservatives and the Liberals have always been ab...
Julian Lewis | 475 c645 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that for the sort of people who run Pakistan or Iran, it ...
David Howarth | 475 c645 (Link to this contribution) Not at all, but the signals are to young people in our own cities. One of the things that the former...
Peter Bone | 475 c645 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a well argued case, with which I totally disagree. On the point of this...
Lord Cormack | 475 c644 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to vote, but the hon. Gentleman has convinced me that I must vote against him. Is...
David Howarth | 475 c646-7 (Link to this contribution) Not at all. The state's role is to prevent harm, but it must do so in a way that does not show favou...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c649 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman, because he is dying to intervene.
Evan Harris | 475 c649 (Link to this contribution) When I tried to intervene earlier, the right hon. Lady was making a good point about the inequality ...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c648 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in due course—if I do not, I am sure he will remind me. As I ...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c648 (Link to this contribution) I believe that we should disagree with their lordships' amendment. I have not been persuaded by anyt...
Richard Bacon | 475 c647 (Link to this contribution) That is the right question. However, by extension, the same question becomes one about whether the p...
David Howarth | 475 c647-8 (Link to this contribution) It is true that there is more support for establishment among religious leaders than we would expect...
Julian Lewis | 475 c647 (Link to this contribution) I come back to the point that I made in my first intervention. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that t...
David Howarth | 475 c647 (Link to this contribution) That is a version of one of the arguments that I have mentioned. I respect it, but I do not think th...
Edward Leigh | 475 c649 (Link to this contribution) In response to what the Minister said earlier, if Bagehot were here, he would argue that we should n...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c650 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend and I look forward to hearing him make that case in his own contribution...
William Cash | 475 c650 (Link to this contribution) I agree very much with the sentiments expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and...
Desmond Swayne | 475 c650 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend, but is not there a danger that less tolerant minority faiths will perce...
William Cash | 475 c650-1 (Link to this contribution) I understand that case, and I believe that the point is well made. However, it is said time and agai...
Peter Bone | 475 c651 (Link to this contribution) Is not the nub of the argument the signal that the decision that we make tonight will send to the co...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c649 (Link to this contribution) No—I think that the abolition of the blasphemy laws is a levelling down. I rather take exception to...
Maria Eagle | 475 c649 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Lady consider the current common law offences to be useable? One of our main poi...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c649 (Link to this contribution) I believe that they would be useable if the will to use them existed. ““Jerry Springer: The Opera”” ...
Lord Garnier | 475 c652 (Link to this contribution) My last intervention was far too long, but it contained a question that my hon. Friend might condesc...
William Cash | 475 c652 (Link to this contribution) Yes; there is no doubt that the divine right of kings came to an end in 1649, when Charles I was exe...
Speaker | 475 c652 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that the point has been made for me.
William Cash | 475 c652 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to my hon. Friend and next door neighbour, t...
Edward Leigh | 475 c653 (Link to this contribution) Is it not somewhat bizarre that pretty much everyone who has spoken in defence of the Church of Engl...
Lord Garnier | 475 c652 (Link to this contribution) The second point is that although my hon. Friend's point is about religiosity and reinforcing the ne...
Lord Cormack | 475 c652 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. and learned Friend give way?
Lord Garnier | 475 c652 (Link to this contribution) I shall probably regret this intervention, but the first point is that my hon. Friend meant our hon....
Desmond Swayne | 475 c653 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend suggesting, therefore, that this has less to do with the divine right of kings tha...
William Cash | 475 c653 (Link to this contribution) I was a little troubled by the intervention of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York on this issue....
John Hayes | 475 c653 (Link to this contribution) Is not this also about our sense of identity and a link to our history? Once we detach people from t...
William Cash | 475 c653 (Link to this contribution) I would not wish to go down the route of defending the inquisition, but let us leave that to one sid...
Edward Leigh | 475 c653 (Link to this contribution) Does not that say something about the competence of the established Church?
Maria Eagle | 475 c654 (Link to this contribution) I am listening to the hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdec...
William Cash | 475 c653-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree with that very strongly. My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) also put hi...
Evan Harris | 475 c654 (Link to this contribution) This evening is an historic occasion—one on which we abolish the blasphemy laws. When the Bill recei...
William Cash | 475 c654 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to have to disabuse the Minister. I have here the most recent edition of the standard tex...
David Howarth | 475 c630 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister moves on to the procedural section, I would like her to confirm that the duties ...
Maria Eagle | 475 c630 (Link to this contribution) Let me finish my comments; I will be perfectly happy to deal with the hon. Gentleman's point once I ...
Lord Garnier | 475 c631-2 (Link to this contribution) We have eight minutes before the guillotine comes clattering down, which will leave police and priso...
Maria Eagle | 475 c630-1 (Link to this contribution) That is certainly the intention. Proposed new section 55B will make provision for procedural rights...
Lord Garnier | 475 c632 (Link to this contribution) In the second half of the second sentence of my speech, Madam Deputy Speaker, I was going to deal wi...
Speaker | 475 c632 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman is going to address his remarks to this amendment....
Maria Eagle | 475 c629 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The House will be aware that on Report in another place their lord...
James Brokenshire | 475 c629 (Link to this contribution) The Minister talks about substantial distress or damage. Can she explain what she means by that? She...
Maria Eagle | 475 c629-30 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point. The Lords amendments in respect of this matter do not discriminate betwe...
James Brokenshire | 475 c630 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the Minister is saying about giving the Information Commissioner discretion, but her pro...
William Cash | 475 c638 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may be aware of a case that she did not mention—Wingrove v. the United Kingdom—in which...
Speaker | 475 c638 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 196 and 344.
Maria Eagle | 475 c638 (Link to this contribution) These amendments abolish the common law criminal offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel. Follow...
Speaker | 475 c638 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the Minister, I can deal with this point myself, and I suggest that we move on.
Maria Eagle | 475 c638 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Speaker | 475 c637 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to cut the hon. Gentleman off, but I see the point that he seeks to make. It has a...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c637 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We have just had a vote on an important matter relating to ...
Maria Eagle | 475 c633 (Link to this contribution) I understand the concerns that both the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) and the...
David Howarth | 475 c632-3 (Link to this contribution) Lords amendment No. 115 goes back to a proposal from my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and From...
Richard Bacon | 475 c640 (Link to this contribution) It is not strange in the slightest. Surely, as a libel lawyer, my hon. and learned Friend would be i...
Lord Garnier | 475 c640 (Link to this contribution) There is always room for levity.
Julian Lewis | 475 c640 (Link to this contribution) Levity all the way to the bank.
Lord Garnier | 475 c640 (Link to this contribution) I will not allow myself to be disturbed by the outrageous allegation that my hon. Friend the Member ...
Julian Lewis | 475 c639 (Link to this contribution) I am a member of a minority religious group, and I have no doubt that if something insulting were to...
Maria Eagle | 475 c639 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that to be the case, and I do not share the hon. Gentleman's analysis. In its repo...
Lord Garnier | 475 c640 (Link to this contribution) I am speaking in a purely personal capacity, as this is a matter entirely for the consciences of my ...
Maria Eagle | 475 c639-40 (Link to this contribution) A person in that position would of course gain as much as a member of any other religion. The legisl...
Edward Leigh | 475 c638-9 (Link to this contribution) If this law is not being used, one might wonder whether it is doing any harm. One might make the poi...
Maria Eagle | 475 c638 (Link to this contribution) I did not quite follow the hon. Gentleman's argument, and he may intervene again if he wishes to do ...
Lord Garnier | 475 c641-2 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister is saying that the whole lot of them do, he is quite right. The whole lot is dreadfu...
Speaker | 475 c641 (Link to this contribution) Order. We will not have a very satisfactory debate if we keep getting interventions from a sedentary...
Lord Garnier | 475 c640 (Link to this contribution) I think that my right hon. Friend is no longer a member of the Church of England.
Lord Garnier | 475 c641 (Link to this contribution) No, I was suggesting that my right hon. Friend was no longer a member of the Church of England. The...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c641 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. In response to my admittedly sedentary intervention that all those offences were...
Lord Garnier | 475 c641 (Link to this contribution) If that is the usual way, I will.
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c641 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. and learned Friend allow me?
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c644 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's argument sounds like one for the disestablishment of the Church of England. Is ...
David Howarth | 475 c644 (Link to this contribution) I should say that it is the policy of my party to work towards the disestablishment of the Church, a...
Richard Bacon | 475 c642 (Link to this contribution) May I help my hon. and learned Friend and the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris)...
Lord Garnier | 475 c642 (Link to this contribution) My view is that the archbishops were taking a pragmatic approach on the effect of the High Court dec...
David Howarth | 475 c642-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) has already set out what was said in the ca...
Lord Garnier | 475 c642 (Link to this contribution) That remark would have been more suitably made in an independent speech than in an intervention, but...
David Howarth | 475 c643 (Link to this contribution) In a second; I knew that the hon. Gentleman would intervene at that point. I will just finish what I...
William Cash | 475 c643 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Howarth | 475 c643-4 (Link to this contribution) I think that that was in Lord Scarman's judgment. There is a difference between tending towards an i...
William Cash | 475 c643 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I really do not buy the argument that it is necessary to include the civil strife i...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c608-9 (Link to this contribution) It will be a matter for the other place as to what it does, and it will have to decide on that tomor...
David Howarth | 475 c609 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) that this is a vital measure...
Andrew Selous | 475 c609 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a slight flaw in the hon. Gentleman's argument? Does it not come down to the issue of i...
David Howarth | 475 c609 (Link to this contribution) For this criminal offence, the intention has to be in the mind of the offender because that is where...
Lord Beith | 475 c609-10 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend leaves that point, I want to explore with him the issue of immoderate or intem...
David Howarth | 475 c610-1 (Link to this contribution) If my right hon. Friend waits for a minute, he will see that I do not think that dealing with the pr...
Maria Eagle | 475 c611 (Link to this contribution) The CPS will provide guidance in any event. What I am offering the House—I apologise for not having ...
David Howarth | 475 c611 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that. In a different context, I remember a long debate—about half a day—dur...
David Howarth | 475 c611-2 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. However, the problem is that the amendment mysteriously misses out some rights. We want ...
David Howarth | 475 c612 (Link to this contribution) I accept that point. Amendments (a) and (c) try to deal with the problem seriously and they require ...
Lord Cormack | 475 c612-3 (Link to this contribution) I always find such debates difficult because whenever the House of Commons tries to quantify or qual...
Lord Garnier | 475 c612 (Link to this contribution) I was muttering because I was dismayed at the poverty of the hon. Gentleman's argument, which surpri...
Lord Cormack | 475 c613 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I understand the Under-Secretary's point, but I believe that we are considering an imperfect wa...
Maria Eagle | 475 c613 (Link to this contribution) I assure the hon. Gentleman that the offence would not apply in those circumstances because the pote...
Lord Cormack | 475 c613 (Link to this contribution) I do not for a moment impugn the Under-Secretary's good intentions and I would like to see the guida...
Evan Harris | 475 c614 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Gentleman explain why religious conviction should have a special place and why politica...
Sammy Wilson | 475 c613 (Link to this contribution) Given the zealousness with which some police officers have pursued those who do exactly as the hon. ...
Lord Cormack | 475 c614 (Link to this contribution) Exactly so. I completely understand and agree with the hon. Gentleman's point. I therefore remain wo...
Evan Harris | 475 c604 (Link to this contribution) I am not concerned about the need to issue guidance on the legislation because it is narrow and the ...
Maria Eagle | 475 c605 (Link to this contribution) I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that I will be happy to talk to the law officers about t...
Maria Eagle | 475 c605 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that what he has described relates to offences that have a much lower...
Maria Eagle | 475 c602-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree that clarity is tremendously important, but I do not agree that the hon. and learned Gentlem...
Evan Harris | 475 c603 (Link to this contribution) I agree that the threshold for the offence that we are considering is much higher, and appropriately...
Maria Eagle | 475 c603-4 (Link to this contribution) I am doing my best to come on to what I propose, but I keep giving way to Opposition Members—and I w...
Baroness Featherstone | 475 c606 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not see that if we agreed to the Lords amendment, we would have to explain t...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c605-6 (Link to this contribution) The concern is to ensure that the police and prosecutors have a clear understanding of the intention...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c606 (Link to this contribution) We need to remind ourselves that the purpose of the amendment is to say what will and will not be su...
David Howarth | 475 c608 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman about temperate and moderate language, but the problem is that that ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c608 (Link to this contribution) Surely the point is that ““of itself”” is exactly the safeguard that my right hon. Friend the Member...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c607 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the amendment that has been sent to us from another place addresses t...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c608 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is exactly right. That is why the amendment is helpful, not unhelpful, and woul...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c607 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right about context, and the courts will have to have regard to that. What we ...
Maria Eagle | 475 c607 (Link to this contribution) Does not the hon. Gentleman believe that the terms of the threshold that we have set in the proposed...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 475 c607 (Link to this contribution) I do not see the harm in ensuring that that is clear in framing the legislation. When certain forms ...
David Drew | 475 c608 (Link to this contribution) I am genuinely confused. I can see that the hon. Gentleman is opposing the Lords amendment as it sta...
Maria Eagle | 475 c628 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Speaker | 475 c628 (Link to this contribution) Order. Please will Members who do not wish to participate in the debate leave the Chamber as quickly...
Maria Eagle | 475 c628 (Link to this contribution) The House will be aware that on Report—[Interruption.]
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c623-4 (Link to this contribution) According to the picture that the Minister is painting, a reasonable law exists, and a few over-zeal...
Maria Eagle | 475 c622-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I never said any such thing—that any particular group deserves more...
Lord Cormack | 475 c624 (Link to this contribution) Did not the Minister's reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Wi...
Maria Eagle | 475 c624 (Link to this contribution) Every police force is different, and each has its pros and cons. We all know that from our constitue...
Maria Eagle | 475 c624-5 (Link to this contribution) I said in my opening remarks that the amendment sowed confusion over what is actually a very clear o...
Evan Harris | 475 c619 (Link to this contribution) But under this amendment, those words by themselves should not be taken to be threatening.
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c618 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman calls this a progressive measure, but that is a matter of opinion. We have had a ...
Lord Beith | 475 c619 (Link to this contribution) The words ““or else”” are threatening.
Evan Harris | 475 c618-9 (Link to this contribution) I accept that, and that issue must be strictly controlled. If one acts as a public authority, or is ...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c614-6 (Link to this contribution) In addressing the issue, we need to consider the context in which provisions in the Bill for the avo...
Lord Cormack | 475 c614 (Link to this contribution) I accept that entirely. I am talking about mainstream religions, in particular Christianity. Of cour...
Ann Widdecombe | 475 c616 (Link to this contribution) I shall tell the hon. Gentleman exactly what it means. When the police rang up Lynette Burrows, she ...
Gerald Howarth | 475 c622 (Link to this contribution) I wish to raise a very important issue. Anybody who is attacked in this country requires protection....
Maria Eagle | 475 c622 (Link to this contribution) We have had a wide-ranging debate in which all the relevant issues have had an airing. That is a goo...
William Cash | 475 c622 (Link to this contribution) I rather sensed that that was the case. No doubt the hon. Gentleman, coming from Oxford, will share ...
Evan Harris | 475 c622 (Link to this contribution) I have just checked the recollections of my colleagues. What I meant to say in context was the ““odi...
William Cash | 475 c621-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I think that is fair. I see that the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon is about to rise...
William Cash | 475 c621 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak in the debate until I heard the extremely powerful arguments put by my r...
Gerald Howarth | 475 c619-21 (Link to this contribution) I rise strongly to support my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdeco...
Evan Harris | 475 c619 (Link to this contribution) I know, but the amendment refers to urging persons to refrain. Certainly, when I am urged by people ...
Gerald Howarth | 475 c661-2 (Link to this contribution) I wish that my hon. Friend would speak more clearly, so that the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Ab...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 475 c573 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Richard Bacon | 475 c664 (Link to this contribution) I recommend that the hon. Gentleman read Roger Scruton's book ““The West and the Rest””, as I believ...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Data protection Criminal proceedings Crime Crimes against the person Blasphemy Legal profession Incitement Legal opinion Freedom of expression Police Pay Powers Prisons Magistrates' courts Sentencing Training Religion Sexuality HM Prison Service Community orders Suspended sentences Homophobia
Legislation
Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill 2006-07 to 2007-08
Contains statistics
Yes
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk