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Debate on bill on Wednesday, 17 November 2010, in the House of Lords.

Identity Documents Bill

Identity Documents Bill. Lords report stage debate. Amendment to clause 2 agreed on division (220 to 188). Bill reported.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
722 c782-811 
Session
2010-12
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
Government defeats
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c809 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the noble Lord, the Earl Ferrers—
Earl Ferrers | 722 c809 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is a very bright noble Lord, and he normally picks up things straight awa...
Show all contributions (104)
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c809 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, was quite right to correct us on this matt...
Lord Skelmersdale | 722 c809 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, while we are in a correcting mood, may I remind the House that we are actually on Report a...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c810 (Link to this contribution) I shall make two points about that. First, I fully understand the point that the noble Lord is raisi...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c810 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Before we forget, we need to remember that the ID system that...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c810 (Link to this contribution) I look forward to further debates on those matters. The noble Lord is quite right. I hope that your ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 722 c810 (Link to this contribution) The fact of the matter is, as the noble Lord must know, a lot of the material gathered by Google has...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c810-1 (Link to this contribution) Two separate issues seem to have been debated under this amendment. The first was whether one needs ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c811 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for what my noble friend the Minister has said. I am happy to withdraw the amendment, ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c811 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give such an assurance to the House.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c811 (Link to this contribution) On that basis I am happy to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 6 withdrawn.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c807 (Link to this contribution) I am thoroughly schooled, my Lords, and deeply grateful to—I scarcely dare address him now—the noble...
Earl Ferrers | 722 c807 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend referred to Earl Erroll. Actually, he should have said the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, ...
Lord Rosser | 722 c806 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, the reason for bringing forward this amendment relates to the evidence given in Committee...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c807 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment was moved in Committee. I bring it back and I hope that what my noble frien...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c806-7 (Link to this contribution) 6: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““Independent review (1) The Secretary of State...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c807 (Link to this contribution) Oh my gosh. I shall go back to school. This is a basic and simple matter. I shall be interested to ...
Earl Ferrers | 722 c809 (Link to this contribution) It is the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers. For goodness’ sake, the noble Lord is still on the Front Bench. ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c809 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a great pleasure to welcome the noble Lord, the Earl Ferrers, to our debates on—
Baroness Hamwee | 722 c809 (Link to this contribution) In Committee I raised the issues on subsection (10) to which reference has just been made, and I did...
Earl of Erroll | 722 c808 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is the noble Earl. It is very confusing. I am actually the Earl of Erroll, but we are i...
Baroness Hamwee | 722 c808 (Link to this contribution) In Committee I raised the point on subsection (10) to which the noble Lord referred. Is it the noble...
Earl of Erroll | 722 c808 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if I had got my act together a bit more quickly, I would have added my name to the amendme...
Lord Maxton | 722 c807-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord who moved the amendment may be slightly surprised to know that I support it...
Earl of Erroll | 722 c809 (Link to this contribution) If noble Lords will indulge me for two seconds, the only person who is the exception here is the nob...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c795 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I say to the government Front Bench that we are out of order. It is the job of the Front B...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c795 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may just say that I have undertaken to take the point away. I have done so in good faith a...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c795 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I say to the Minister that her good faith is not at issue at all. The issue is whether it ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 722 c795 (Link to this contribution) It is not me to give this advice, except in response to what my noble friend has asked. However, as ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 722 c796 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand that there are anxieties around the House. The House is self-regulating, unli...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 722 c796 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with respect we are faced with an issue of law—
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c793 (Link to this contribution) This is the position of the Government, my Lords.
Lord Higgins | 722 c793 (Link to this contribution) In answer to an earlier intervention regarding the position of the law officers, my noble friend sai...
Lord Filkin | 722 c793 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief. There are times when we have to look at Civil Service advice, good and honest thoug...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c794 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand that difference. I am saying that all 15,000 cardholders were informed specif...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 722 c794 (Link to this contribution) The House is listening with some incredulity to the defence the Minister is making of a mere £400,00...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c793-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I said that I will indeed confirm the advice that we have received on the legal aspects. ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c794 (Link to this contribution) I regret interrupting the Minister again but it really is crucial, if I may say so, for her to draw ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 722 c795 (Link to this contribution) I see the position in which my noble friend finds herself. I respectfully submit to the House that i...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c794 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, support for the Irish Government, the national interest, the economic prosperity of this c...
Lord Maxton | 722 c804 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at Second Reading of this Bill, I suggested that, while at the moment an identity card wou...
Earl of Erroll | 722 c804 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fully understand the sentiment behind this, but I am not sure this is the best way to go...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c804-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raises two issues. He spoke to t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 722 c803 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder if, when he comes to wind up, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, could be a little more...
Lord Rosser | 722 c803 (Link to this contribution) We are not actually on Amendment 4. I have been speaking to Amendment 5.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 722 c805 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to what the noble Baroness has said. It worries me that the Home Office se...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c805 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure how the noble Lord gained that impression. All I said, I think, was that identit...
Lord Maxton | 722 c805 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness not agree, however, that an identity card would be the easiest way of authen...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) I think that this is a debate perhaps of a more expert kind, but I do not agree that that is the cas...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c800 (Link to this contribution) 4: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— ““Report on costs and savings (1) The Secretary ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 722 c796 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have listened very carefully to what the noble Baroness has said on this matter, and I a...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 722 c797 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a matter for resolution in the normal manner, which is that usual channels discuss...
Lord Rosser | 722 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment calls on the Government to produce a report on the impact of the repeal of ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c801 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. She has said that the details that I require will be published and I ...
Lord Rosser | 722 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) 5: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Identity fraud (1) The Secretary of State must...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment is fairly straightforward, and I hope that it will be seen as a much-needed ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c801 (Link to this contribution) The Government certainly agree that it is important that we are open and transparent about costs and...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c784-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is on Amendment 2. I led the opposition from these benches to the Identity Cards B...
Lord Pannick | 722 c785 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support noble Lords who have spoken. Will the noble Baroness tell the House whether she ...
Lord Maxton | 722 c785 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, I supported the introduction of ID cards. I still op...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 722 c785-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the people who hold these cards, and there were not many of them, were inveigled into gett...
Baroness Hamwee | 722 c783 (Link to this contribution) I am confused—I do not know whether other noble Lords are. Is the noble Lord speaking to the first a...
Baroness Hamwee | 722 c783 (Link to this contribution) I did not hear because of the kerfuffle.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c783-4 (Link to this contribution) In the flurry of Members leaving, the noble Baroness may have missed that my noble friend Lord Brett...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we come to an important amendment, which I hope the Minister will be prepared to accept, t...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c782 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 2, page 2, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) giving cardholders the option of being reimbursed ...
Lord Shipley | 722 c790 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to raise a further issue which relates to the wording of the amendment. It re...
Lord Vinson | 722 c789 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to speak from this side against the clause, but I believe that it is morally in...
Lord Richard | 722 c789 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have taken no part in the debates concerning the Bill. Indeed, when I came in here this ...
Lord Deben | 722 c788 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might concentrate on why people bought the card in the place. If they bought it, as it see...
Baroness Hamwee | 722 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for introducing him. I think that the technical term ...
Earl of Erroll | 722 c787-8 (Link to this contribution) I spoke on this matter in Committee. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Brett, because I see that the...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 722 c788 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I share the disquiet of many who have already spoken. I urge the Government to think again...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 722 c787 (Link to this contribution) What is being done here is to deprive the identity card of value by the main provisions of this Bill...
Lord Craig of Radley | 722 c787 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am equally concerned that for the sake of a very small amount of money the Government ar...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c790 (Link to this contribution) I think not, any more than if one uses a passport for that purpose, which is also a government docum...
Lord Maxton | 722 c790 (Link to this contribution) But the passport is being retained. It is still going to be a legal document, whereas presumably the...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c791 (Link to this contribution) If it is a valid document, it can be used validly for identity. If it is an invalid or cancelled doc...
Earl of Erroll | 722 c791 (Link to this contribution) Under Clause 6 about the possession of false identity documents, does the ID card once it has been r...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c791 (Link to this contribution) You are certainly no longer using a valid identity document. It is not any longer valid in law. The...
Lord Soley | 722 c791 (Link to this contribution) I am listening with some puzzlement. I am not a lawyer, but the Minister has signed off this Bill as...
Earl of Erroll | 722 c790 (Link to this contribution) Excuse me, but that was the opinion of the Opposition at the time, not of the Government.
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c790 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I recognise the strength of sentiment expressed on all sides of the House. If the House wi...
Lord Maxton | 722 c790 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Baroness has just said about the card being government property. Is she saying...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c790 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl is quite right. It has always been the intention, whether in opposition or in governm...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c792-3 (Link to this contribution) The point I was answering before noble Lords intervened was the inference somehow that we are inflic...
Lord Deben | 722 c793 (Link to this contribution) I understand that there may be technical reasons why my proposal does not work, but surely they do n...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 722 c792 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is getting into the complexities and numbers of this. Is this not a matter of sim...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c793 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; I thought that the noble Lord was suggesting that this card should be available for use ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c791 (Link to this contribution) As I have just said, we do not believe that we are expropriating anybody of their rights. If this is...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c792 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I can confirm that. I will to seek to do so before Third Reading. We should not ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 722 c792 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will confirm the advice that I have received.
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 722 c791-2 (Link to this contribution) May I follow that point? The Minister has made the proposition that there is no right in contract by...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c795 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will pick up the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. It might help the House if m...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 722 c796 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there have been interventions on Report that have not been in the customary style that we ...
Earl of Erroll | 722 c794-5 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, will she guarantee to come back with an amendment along the lin...
Baroness Hamwee | 722 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps the Minister could confirm that he would be happier—I am not quite sure that I too...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c797-800 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have heard with a great deal of interest the comments from the Captain of the Gentlemen-...
Lord Brett | 722 c786-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 1 was not moved not because the Minister convinced me in Committee of her argume...
Subjects
Compensation Databases Costs Identity cards Personation National identity register Reviews
Legislation
Identity Documents Bill 2010-12
Link
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