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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 3 March 2011, in the House of Lords.

Pensions Bill [HL]

Pensions Bill (HL). Lords committee stage second day. Clause 5: Earnings trigger for automatic enrolment and re-enrolment, debated and agreed to. Clause 6: Postponement or disapplication of automatic enrolment, debated and agreed to. Clause 7 agreed to. Clause 8: Review of earnings trigger and qualifying earnings band, debated and agreed to. Clause 9 agreed to. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
725 c187-250GC 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c240GC (Link to this contribution) 36: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— ““Voluntary and additional voluntary contributi...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Would she get an employer contribution on the £6,000?
Show all contributions (148)
Lord Freud | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) As I understand the situation, for the job paying £7,600, she would clearly be auto-enrolled. For th...
Baroness Drake | 725 c246GC (Link to this contribution) Even though the evidence that the Minister refers to shows that he is referring to 1 per cent, on a ...
Lord Freud | 725 c241-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and my noble friends for bringing the important issue of the NE...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c214GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 23 withdrawn. Amendment 24 not moved. ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c207GC (Link to this contribution) How can the noble Lord know whether it is right if he cannot establish the family circumstances whic...
Lord Freud | 725 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that intervention and that question. We have looked closely at this i...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c205-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I ask the Minister a question? He rested much of his argument on this amendment, as wi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c208GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we could go on for ever on this, although it may not be hugely productive to do so for muc...
Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 725 c240GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the generous support that my Amendment 34 has been given and for the ver...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c239GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I never mind saying this, but the Minister has given us an almost entirely satisfactory re...
Lord Freud | 725 c239GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I accept the point that the noble Baroness makes that people lose money because of this. T...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c241GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may comment briefly. I can see the thrust of my noble friend’s amendment. I reme...
Lord German | 725 c241GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to say a brief word about Amendment 38, which is in the group. Clearly, the Johnson...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c240-1GC (Link to this contribution) I think that many of us would like the annual cap of £4,200 on contributions to NEST to be removed. ...
Lord Freud | 725 c238-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am pleased to respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. She will see by the amount of ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c239GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would be very simple, at least as an interim stage, to build on what the noble Lord, Lo...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c238GC (Link to this contribution) That is helpful and I understand the issues associated with it, but can the Minister give us some gu...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c232GC (Link to this contribution) 34A: Line 7, at end insert ““or, in cases where the value of an individual fund does not exceed £1,0...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 725 c232GC (Link to this contribution) I must tell your Lordships that there is a printing error in Amendment 34A. After ““repayable”” it s...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c233-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have high hopes for the thrust behind these amendments, given that all sides of the Comm...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c232-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to move my sub-amendment, to use European parlance, as corrected by the noble Baron...
Lord Flight | 725 c236GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support these amendments but express a caveat about something that could lead to the wro...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c235-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given the hour, I rise briefly to say that we have put our names to the amendment in the n...
Lord Freud | 725 c236-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must start by declaring an interest. I think I have one of these infuriating little stra...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 725 c236GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the notion behind these amendments. At Second Reading I drew attention to the po...
Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 725 c231GC (Link to this contribution) 34: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— ““Transfer to national employment savings trust...
Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 725 c231-2GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment tries to deal with the problem of stranded pension pots. The wording is inadequate an...
Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 725 c250GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 40 withdrawn. Amendment 41 not moved.
Lord Freud | 725 c249-50GC (Link to this contribution) I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, that if the research shows that charging levels are creep...
Baroness Drake | 725 c249GC (Link to this contribution) I am conscious of the time and do not want to hold anybody up, so I shall try to be brief. I underst...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c248GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in relation to Amendment 40, from the earlier response that we got from the Minister in re...
Lord Freud | 725 c248GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Stoneham for these two amendments, which concern the same iss...
Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 725 c247GC (Link to this contribution) 40: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— ““Continued saving following employment lasting...
Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 725 c247-8GC (Link to this contribution) In the interests of brevity as time is short, I am very happy to speak to Amendments 40 and 41, whic...
Lord German | 725 c247GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the statement that the Minister has just made. Apart from the actions that he has ...
Lord Freud | 725 c246-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, for her market insight here. I choose my words carefully. It...
Lord German | 725 c244GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment relates to deferred charges, and it deals with the part of the benchmarking...
Lord German | 725 c244GC (Link to this contribution) 39: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— ““Deferred charges The Secretary of State shall...
Lord Freud | 725 c246GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord German has tabled an amendment to give the Secretary of State powers ...
Baroness Drake | 725 c245GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord German, and I am pleased that he has tabled t...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c243GC (Link to this contribution) I can well understand why pension providers are—let me put it politely—apprehensive about the compet...
Lord Freud | 725 c243-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for giving way and for giving me the opportunity to clarify matters. This...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c244GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given the time, I do not think that there is any point in my pursuing this matter further....
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to reinforce that. I was struck by the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Boswell. Whe...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c221GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the Minister responds, perhaps I may briefly share with the Committee a slight conc...
Lord Freud | 725 c221GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their observations and repeat how the structure works. The cycle w...
Lord German | 725 c218GC (Link to this contribution) 27: After Clause 7, insert the following new Clause— ““Automatic enrolment date The automatic enrolm...
Lord German | 725 c218GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a relatively straightforward amendment to provide some certainty in a situation wh...
Lord German | 725 c217-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my amendment would simply have enabled the guidance to be provided. The Minister has descr...
Lord German | 725 c220GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am still a little confused over the explanation. I understand fully the point about some...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c220-1GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, I wish to follow up on that point. I was somewhat sur...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c218-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord German, has raised an interesting point, which I hope the Minister ca...
Lord Freud | 725 c219-20GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord German for this amendment, which would restrict an employer t...
Baroness Drake | 725 c230-1GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response but I am not persuaded by his arguments to feel confident. I c...
Lord Freud | 725 c229-30GC (Link to this contribution) All this is saying to me that, right now, uprating measures for entry and savings levels need to be ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 725 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Amendment 33 is in this group. I was prompted to table an amendment to this clause by the TUC. It...
Lord Freud | 725 c228-9GC (Link to this contribution) Uprating and revaluation measures, especially for pensions, can be challenging to get right and hotl...
Baroness Drake | 725 c224GC (Link to this contribution) 28: Clause 8, page 7, line 22, leave out ““, 5(1)(a)””
Baroness Drake | 725 c224-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 29 to 32. Please forgive me if I take a little of your Lo...
Lord German | 725 c224GC (Link to this contribution) On that basis and in the spirit of asymmetric paternalism, I am grateful to accept the Minister’s re...
Lord Geddes | 725 c224GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this might be a convenient moment to have a short break. The Committee stands adjourned un...
Lord Freud | 725 c223GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can see when I am up against the wall. I am not completely insensitive. I will look to s...
Lord Freud | 725 c223GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could just interrupt. What I have not made adequately clear, for which I apologise, is how...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c223GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister just help me on one point? I do not want to prolong this. If the complexity he sug...
Lord Freud | 725 c222GC (Link to this contribution) We have committed to monitor this situation quite widely, in particular how the waiting periods are ...
Baroness Drake | 725 c222GC (Link to this contribution) The three-month waiting period gives rise to concerns over bad employers. However, on the monitoring...
Lord Freud | 725 c222GC (Link to this contribution) I repeat that we are committed to looking at waiting periods and there is a general duty on the Pens...
Lord German | 725 c222-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would normally be swayed by the persuasive eloquence of my noble friend the Minister, bu...
Lord Freud | 725 c221GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for that point. Clearly, in all these areas there...
Lord Freud | 725 c222GC (Link to this contribution) I have given a commitment that we are going to monitor how all this works on a regular basis and I f...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c222GC (Link to this contribution) I do not understand how the Minister can monitor the difference between the two months and the week’...
Lord Freud | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) The £7,600 would take her through the threshold. The additional incomes would be treated separately,...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Even though one or two other employers were involved?
Lord Freud | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to answer that, but I shall keep an ear open to those behind me.
Lord Freud | 725 c198GC (Link to this contribution) We are in danger of sitting here devising IT systems, which is great fun but rather time-consuming. ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c198-9GC (Link to this contribution) Before I decide what to do with the amendment, which will be fairly predictable, perhaps I may ask t...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c197-8GC (Link to this contribution) Well, they are, and it is the Conservative Party agents’ superannuation scheme, but I promise not to...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c198GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister would allow me to intervene, because he challenged the description I g...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c197GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether I might make my contribution before the Opposition spokesman. First, I ap...
Lord Freud | 725 c195-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on Tuesday we discussed the possible aggregation of many jobs for credit towards the basic...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c193GC (Link to this contribution) 17: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— ““Right to apply for amalgamation of earnings f...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c193GC (Link to this contribution) I am simply not persuaded by this. Is the Minister saying that because the very poorest—those earnin...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c194-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to Amendments 20 and 21 in this group, which concern the trigger. Their thrust is ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c194GC (Link to this contribution) I will be brief. As the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, noticed, very perceptively, this is a shadow repe...
Lord Freud | 725 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that explanation. My point of concern remains unchanged: if we allow ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c192-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support of my noble friend Lady Drake on this and for the thoughtfulness of th...
Lord Freud | 725 c193GC (Link to this contribution) I want to make this absolutely clear. Our concern here is about the discrimination that would otherw...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c191GC (Link to this contribution) I do not understand the point that the noble Lord has just made. Why would it penalise other low ear...
Lord Freud | 725 c190-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment. I have listened to the debate with great int...
Baroness Drake | 725 c190GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to my mind there are two reasons why Amendment 16, tabled by my noble friend Lady Hollis, ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c187-90GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is about voluntary earnings. Who do we think NEST is for? It is basically f...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c192GC (Link to this contribution) No. I apologise. It says that at the moment you are automatically enrolled at £7,500 and can opt in ...
Lord Freud | 725 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I am now slightly mystified by the intention of the amendment. I understood that it allowed an opt-i...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I obviously did not make myself clear. I said that the...
Lord Freud | 725 c191GC (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that question. There are around 1 million workers with annual earnings below £5,715....
Baroness Fookes | 725 c187GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, although it seems highly unlikely this afternoon, I am obliged to remind your Lordships th...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c187GC (Link to this contribution) 16: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— ““Voluntary enrolment and employer contribution...
Lord Freud | 725 c214-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for this amendment. As he has pointed out, it would...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c215GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his response. I was reflecting on how many times I have deployed exactly ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c214GC (Link to this contribution) 25: Clause 6, page 6, line 32, at end insert— ““4A Annual report on implementation and monitoring of...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c214GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is very straightforward and simply seeks the publication of an annual monit...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c216GC (Link to this contribution) This is an important amendment, not just for this but for all the other areas where we are looking a...
Baroness Drake | 725 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I express my support for the sentiments and views of the noble Lord, Lord German, in movin...
Lord German | 725 c215GC (Link to this contribution) 26: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Deferral period The Secretary of State shall ...
Lord German | 725 c215-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will not keep the Committee long, given that the Minister has, in his response to a prev...
Lord Freud | 725 c217GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friends for this amendment, which would require us to make sure that guid...
Lord Freud | 725 c211-2GC (Link to this contribution) A waiting period will also allow employers to align automatic enrolment processes with their existin...
Lord Freud | 725 c213GC (Link to this contribution) I tried to explain that. There are a few things happening here but the relevant thing is to try to a...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c212-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, of course I intend to withdraw the amendment. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, and my...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, briefly before my noble friend replies and in the spirit of the questions that are being f...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will also speak to Amendment 24. These amendments could be degrouped because they are al...
Lord Freud | 725 c210-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 23 would reduce the maximum length of the waiting period from three months to on...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c210GC (Link to this contribution) That is a very interesting contribution and I hope that the Minister will follow it up. I want to pu...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c213GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has already, and I am glad that he has, sold the pass on that by allowing voluntary enr...
Lord Freud | 725 c213GC (Link to this contribution) There is a great deal of difference between having a system that allows opt-in at any stage compared...
Lord Freud | 725 c207GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to the noble Lord on that and make absolutely clear the arguments that we will...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c206-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate on these amendments. I had inte...
Lord Freud | 725 c206GC (Link to this contribution) She would make an argument to that effect, no doubt. However, how that would happen and its timing w...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c208GC (Link to this contribution) 23: Clause 6, page 6, line 15, leave out ““three months”” and insert ““one month””
Lord Freud | 725 c207GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are all using the Johnson review as a basis. It recommends that higher threshold and we...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c200GC (Link to this contribution) I think that where that takes us is that the woman in question would be getting information and cont...
Lord Freud | 725 c200GC (Link to this contribution) That is exactly what I said, so I thank the noble Baroness, who is an expert in this area, for givin...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c201-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lady Turner is not here but as my amendments, which are grouped with this,...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 725 c200GC (Link to this contribution) 18: Clause 5, page 4, line 30, leave out ““£7,475”” and insert ““£5,715””
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c203GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may briefly invite my noble friend to consider one particular point about the raising of t...
Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 725 c202-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a discussion on some of the main reasons for the move in the threshold. We are...
Baroness Greengross | 725 c203GC (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading, I stressed the point that one good aspect of the trigger was that it would help p...
Lord Freud | 725 c203-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for leaping into the breach and allowing us ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c204GC (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister help me? He said that we should not encourage people to save who would be no better...
Lord Freud | 725 c204-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. Regrettably, she catches me at a time when I am not...
Lord Freud | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, that goes above the lower trigger.
Lord Freud | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, the lower trigger. It is not from pound one.
Lord Freud | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Just to make it absolutely clear: the contribution is made above that trigger.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) I would be very happy for the Minister to write to me; I realise that I am throwing this example at ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 725 c200GC (Link to this contribution) To be clear—again, I am very happy for the noble Lord to write to me, because I realise that I have ...
Lord Freud | 725 c200GC (Link to this contribution) I do not need to write. I can confirm that. It does not have to be NEST. The pensions may or may not...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend the Minister said that she would have nothing from the employer. I suppose, to be pe...
Lord Freud | 725 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I can confirm that, although we are going to be giving everyone their pension soon if we carry ...
Baroness Drake | 725 c200GC (Link to this contribution) If it was NEST, it would not be two pots; it would all go into one NEST account. But if the employer...
Subjects
Women Employees' contributions Employers' contributions Personal income Low incomes Workplace pensions Pensions Temporary employment State retirement pensions Self-employed National employment savings trust scheme
Legislation
Pensions Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
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