Debate on bill on Monday, 4 March 2019, in the House of Lords, led by Earl Howe, Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness Barran.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Lords report stage second day. Amendments debated and withdrawn. Government amendments and a new clause agreed to. Bill, as amended, ordered to be printed (HL Bill 162).

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 796 cc444-1055
Session: 2017-19
Department: Home Office; Ministry of Defence
Legislative stage: Report stage
Procedure: New clauses
Chamber / Committee: House of Lords chamber
Related items: Offensive Weapons Bill 2017-19. As amended in committee.
Tuesday, 12 February 2019
Bills
House of Lords; Offensive Weapons Bill 2017-19. As amended on Report.
Monday, 4 March 2019
Bills
House of Lords; Deposited Paper DEP2019-0359
Monday, 18 March 2019
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions: Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 c444 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
74: Clause 18, page 17, line 36, at end insert—; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 cc444-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 74 and 77 in my name seek to establish a “trusted trader” scheme to enable b...; Lord Paddick | 796 c445 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, that this legislation is seriou...; Lord Lucas | 796 c445 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I add to this unanimity of voice. I entirely agree with what both noble Lords have said...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c446 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support everything the three noble Lords have said. I completely concur with everythi...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc446-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for these amendments. I am particul...; Lord Paddick | 796 c447 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Baroness sits down, could she just qualify what she said about the test purchase...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c447 (Link to this contribution)
Such a scheme would impose an additional burden. The noble Lord talks about other burdens; I am n...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 cc447-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I put this provision forw...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c448 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I cannot commit to bringing it back at Third Reading, but I know the noble Lord will br...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 c448 (Link to this contribution)
Just to clarify, is the Minister happy for me to bring it back at Third Reading? I do not want an...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c448 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think there will be any disputes with the clerks.; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 c448 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in that case, that is all clear and correct. I am delighted to withdraw the amendment.<...; Duke of Montrose | 796 c448 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
The Duke of Montrose
75: Clause 18, page 17, line 41, at end insert “unless ...; Duke of Montrose | 796 cc448-450 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise to move this amendment and speak to others standing in my name—namely, Amendment...; Lord Paddick | 796 c450 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have some sympathy with the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, on this issue but again...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 c450 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise briefly to support the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, as he raises valid poin...; Earl of Erroll | 796 cc450-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise to support the amendments as well. A lot of effort is going into preserving hill...; Baroness Barran | 796 cc451-2 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend for his amendments, which return us to the proposed prohibition ...; Duke of Montrose | 796 c452 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for all her efforts in answering the questions which I have rai...; Lord Lucas | 796 c453 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Lucas
81: Clause 20, page 19, line 24, at end insert—
( ) The Sec...; Lord Lucas | 796 c453 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for substituting for me in my ab...; Baroness Hamwee | 796 cc453-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, is not really possible to substitute for the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, but I was happy to...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c455 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we having been discussing this issue in the Digital Policy Alliance’s age verification ...; Duke of Montrose | 796 c455 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has raised the question of pointed articles possibly b...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc455-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, f...; Lord Pannick | 796 c456 (Link to this contribution)
Why is it thought that guidance is less likely to lead people to seek to evade the purposes of th...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c456 (Link to this contribution)
If I understand the noble Lord’s question, he is asking whether guidance is less likely to make p...; Lord Pannick | 796 c151 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has expressed concern—she may well be right—that, if the Bill were amended to make c...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c457 (Link to this contribution)
I stick by the point that people will use the list in the Bill to try to get around the law, and ...; Baroness Hamwee | 796 c4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, given the problems with the Bill itself, I make a point so that at least Hansard is acc...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c457 (Link to this contribution)
It comes back to the noble Baroness’s point about consultation. In developing the guidance, we mu...; Lord Paddick | 796 c6 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise for persisting but the Minister referred to table knives being excluded from this pro...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c458 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that John Lewis currently delivers table knives or any type of bladed products to ...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 c6 (Link to this contribution)
When this discussion is over I invite the Minister to read Hansard and to reflect on the debate—i...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we are not missing the point: we are trying to get a balance between people selling pro...; Lord Lucas | 796 cc1-459 (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate the difficulties the Government are having in trying to get this clause right. I go ...; Lord Lucas | 796 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Lucas
88: After Clause 21, insert the following new Clause—
“Powe...; Lord Lucas | 796 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if we are going to have this arrangement whereby overseas sellers are advantaged, at le...; Earl of Erroll | 796 cc460-943 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment, which is eminently sensible. Why should one have something tha...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc944-461 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lucas for returning us to this difficult issue ab...; Lord Paddick | 796 c461 (Link to this contribution)
Before the Minister sits down, will she explain why the Government cannot exert extraterritorial ...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c948 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is absolutely correct, as Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act provide...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c950 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in an ideal world, we would have the same systems for overseas and domestic sales. We c...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c951 (Link to this contribution)
We can.; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c953 (Link to this contribution)
As I understand it, we cannot. We have had the example of pornography. The system I am referring ...; Lord Paddick | 796 c956 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. These are paid-for websites. People are paying for a se...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c462 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord will agree that not all their sales would be of prohibited items.; Lord Elton | 796 c961 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, surely that is not an answer. We want to stop the whole thing.; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c962 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have tried—; Earl of Erroll | 796 c962 (Link to this contribution)
I will try to help the Minister. The Government or the regulator would be deciding whether a fore...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c964 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, that would require a global trawl of every company in the world selling knives, prohibi...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c965 (Link to this contribution)
This has been covered widely in the pornography provisions of the Digital Economy Act, which the ...; Lord Pannick | 796 c966 (Link to this contribution)
I suggest to the Minister that the point is not about a trawl of all foreign sellers. If I unders...; Lord Paddick | 796 c463 (Link to this contribution)
To assist the Minister further, I can assure her that there are more websites worldwide providing...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c967 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for his intervention. I was not making a glib comment about...; Lord Lucas | 796 cc968-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I entirely accept the strictures that the Minister has discussed concerning the wording...; Lord Lucas | 796 cc969-465 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Lucas
89: Clause 23, page 22, leave out lines 39 to 43 and insert—
<...; Lord Lucas | 796 cc465-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak at the same time to Amendment 90. I am very grateful to the Home Office f...; Baroness Barran | 796 cc466-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend, Lord Lucas, for these amendments. As he mentioned, we had a ver...; Duke of Montrose | 796 c467 (Link to this contribution)
Can the noble Baroness reassure me on a question that I raised at Second Reading? Does the Royal ...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c976 (Link to this contribution)
Given that they are the only private army, but are sanctioned by Her Majesty, after Queen Victori...; Baroness Barran | 796 c975 (Link to this contribution)
I can reassure the noble Lord on both questions, and I will write to him to clarify the details.<...; Lord Lucas | 796 c978 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, naturally I am very saddened to hear my noble friend’s answers, but I see no point in t...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 c978 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
91: After Clause 26, insert the following new Clau...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 c468 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 91, tabled in my name and with the support of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, s...; Lord Paddick | 796 c468 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment, which I fully support. One of the Minister’s mai...; Lord Singh of Wimbledon | 796 c468 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Sikhs are asking for nothing more than respect for their religious and cultural practic...; Lord Suri | 796 c469 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the description of the kirpan given by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, was absolutely cor...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc469-470 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his amendment. It deals with an issu...; Lord Singh of Wimbledon | 796 c470 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords—; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c470 (Link to this contribution)
May I just finish before the noble Lord comes in? On the basis that we want to work with noble Lo...; Lord Singh of Wimbledon | 796 c982 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, much is being made of the definition of a kirpan. It was said in a meeting with Home Of...; Duke of Montrose | 796 c982 (Link to this contribution)
Before my noble friend the Minister sits down, can she give us any examples of how the current le...; Baroness Hamwee | 796 c982 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, following exactly from that point, the Minister has relied on the wording “for religiou...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c982 (Link to this contribution)
I am trying to say that we are trying to come to a workable solution, particularly for the Sikh c...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 c471 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for that response. All through this debate, she has alwa...; Baroness Barran | 796 c471 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Barran
92: Clause 28, page 30, line 38, leave out “such”
Memb...; Baroness Barran | 796 cc471-983 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Clauses 28 and 37 to 39 make provision for payments to be made to owners of offensive w...; Baroness Hamwee | 796 cc983-472 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sorry to prolong this a little. As the Minister said, the amendments allow for dis...; Baroness Barran | 796 c472 (Link to this contribution)
If I have followed the noble Baroness’s question correctly, there are two elements to this. First...; Baroness Hamwee | 796 c472 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I understand why the Secretary of State or whoever has the final say in that, but I do ...; Baroness Barran | 796 cc472-985 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Barran
93: Clause 28, page 30, line 41, at end insert—
“(c) p...; Lord Paddick | 796 c985 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Paddick
94: Clause 29, leave out Clause 29 and insert the following new...; Lord Paddick | 796 cc985-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we return to the argument that the Bill is full of unnecessary new legislation that has...; Baroness Barran | 796 cc474-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment returns, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, just said, to an issue that he...; Lord Paddick | 796 c475 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation. I do not think that it does away wit...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 cc475-6 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
95: Clause 33, leave out Clause 33 and insert the ...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 cc476-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in my nine years in your Lordships’ House, I have never had to come to the Dispatch Box...; Earl Attlee | 796 cc477-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, for returning us to the iss...; Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 796 cc478-480 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think we are all agreed that this is an important issue which needs to be debated. As...; Lord Paddick | 796 cc480-992 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I understand why the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Lord Robertson of Port ...; Earl of Caithness | 796 c992 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I join this debate for a couple of reasons, having listened to it in Grand Committee in...; Earl Attlee | 796 c992 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the answer to the noble Earl’s question about the energy of the rifle is that there is ...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c992 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, people have spoken to me about this and, from what I understand, these weapons are only...; Earl Howe | 796 cc993-482 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has indicated, Amendments 95 and 96 would restore
<...; Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 796 cc482-3 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his contribution. This has been an interesting debate. I am proposing th...; Lord Lucas | 796 c483 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Lucas
95A: Clause 34, page 34, line 44, at beginning insert “and is the...; Lord Lucas | 796 cc996-484 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in Grand Committee my noble friend and I had a discussion on this subject and he said t...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c484 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support this amendment. I find it very sad that we wish to discriminate in legislatio...; Earl Attlee | 796 c998 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend, especially in light of my success with the am...; Earl Howe | 796 cc998-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, although this amendment refers to Clause 34, I have assumed for the purposes of my repl...; Earl of Erroll | 796 c999 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would like to suggest something to the Minister that has just occurred to me: how abo...; Earl Howe | 796 c486 (Link to this contribution)
We received only a very few representations about these weapons as opposed to those covered by my...; Earl Attlee | 796 c1003 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, is another possibility for disabled shooters to use .22 self-loading rifles, which are ...; Earl Howe | 796 cc1003-8 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend. I am sure that that point will be taken on board by the clubs c...; Lord Lucas | 796 cc1008-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, yes, of course I am going to withdraw my amendment but before I do, I again urge the Go...; Earl Howe | 796 c1009 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my understanding is that the evidence provided to the Government by the National Crime ...; Lord Lucas | 796 c487 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would be immensely grateful if my noble friend could point it out to me because no on...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc1012-3 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
97: Clause 37, page 36, line 38, leave out “su...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c1013 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
99: Clause 38, page 37, line 26, leave out “su...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc1017-1020 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
101: Clause 39, page 38, line 23, leave out “s...; Earl of Shrewsbury | 796 cc1023-6 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
The Earl of Shrewsbury
103: After Clause 39, insert the following new Clause...; Earl of Shrewsbury | 796 cc1026-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I refer noble Lords to my entry in the register. The purpose of Amendment 103 is to pla...; Earl of Caithness | 796 c489 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I put my name to this amendment in Committee, but when I came to put my name to it on R...; Earl Attlee | 796 c489 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, while I support my noble friend’s amendment, which I am sure is a good idea, I return t...; Earl Howe | 796 cc1033-490 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue and for the opportunity to disc...; Earl of Shrewsbury | 796 c490 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his words. I am quite happy to w...; Earl Howe | 796 c490 (Link to this contribution)
I would hope that, on reflection, my noble friend will accept that as my words will be printed in...; Earl of Shrewsbury | 796 c1037 (Link to this contribution)
Ten points for trying again, my Lords. With that, I beg leave to withdraw.; Earl Attlee | 796 cc1039-1040 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Earl Attlee
103A: After Clause 39, insert the following new Clause—
“C...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc1043-4 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
104: Clause 40, page 38, line 25, leave out fr...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc492-3 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
106: Before Clause 43, insert the following ne...; Earl Attlee | 796 cc494-1049 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Earl Attlee
107A: Clause 45, page 41, line 10, leave out “40” and insert “39...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc1049-1050 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
108: Clause 45, page 41, line 12, at end inser...; Earl Attlee | 796 c1051 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Earl Attlee
108A: Clause 45, page 41, line 28, at end insert—
“(da) se...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c1051 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
109: Clause 45, page 41, line 44, at end inser...; Earl Attlee | 796 c495 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Earl Attlee
110A: Clause 45, page 42, line 20, at end insert—
“(ha) se...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 c1052 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
111: Clause 46, page 42, line 36, after “to” i...; Earl Attlee | 796 cc1052-3 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Earl Attlee
113A: Clause 46, page 43, line 15, at end insert—
“(hb) se...; Baroness Williams of Trafford | 796 cc1053-496 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Williams of Trafford
114: Clause 46, page 43, line 20, at end inser...; Earl Attlee | 796 c1055 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Earl Attlee
116: Clause 46, page 43, line 45, leave out “40” and insert “(Co...
Subjects: Disability Compensation Armed forces Agriculture Age Antiques Delivery services Licensing Gun sports Film Forestry Equipment Internet Knives Medical examinations Northern Ireland Public places Public consultation Offensive weapons Scotland Sales Young people Theatre Sikhs Food technology Rifles Tools UK Border Force Archery Corrosive substances Knife crime prevention orders
Legislation: Offensive Weapons Bill 2017-19
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on hansard.parliament.uk

Offensive Weapons Bill

Secondary information

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