---

Terrorism Bill

I am very anxious to give my noble friend Lady Warwick and the noble Baronesses, Lady Williams and Lady Carnegy of Lour, the reassurance they need. I appreciate that the Committee is in difficulty because I do not have at this moment the further amendments we propose to bring forward, which would, I am confident, set at rest the minds of the noble Baronesses. I say that because in drafting the Bill the Government were very clear that there was no intention to catch the ordinary philosophical academic discussion which is so much a part of the academic richness inherent in many of our universities and institutions, and, indeed, of the high-quality academic and other debate that takes in place this country. The furthest from our minds was any intention of providing a ““chilling”” effect on such appropriate discussion. The purposes of the Bill as it is, and as it will be when amended, are to ensure that those who act appropriately and professionally in the way discussed by the noble Baronesses will not be criminalised by it. An offence will be committed only by those who know that their pupils or the persons using the literature intend it to be used in the training of terrorist or for other purposes. I understand the Committee’s anxiety and the anxiety of each noble Baroness who has spoken so far and I shall try now to go through some of the issues which are causing such concern. Academic teaching will not constitute an offence under Clause 1 unless there is encouragement to terrorism; it is done with intent or subjective recklessness; and the person is unable to show that he did not endorse the material. In Clause 2 the offence could be committed only if there was dissemination of a terrorist publication and the person was unable to show that he did not endorse the publication and did not intend it to be of use to terrorists. We have already removed Clause 1(3) from the Bill and, as I have indicated, by making further amendments we will also remove Clause 1(7)(a) and Clause 2(9)(b). Amendment No. 79, to which we will come later, also offers further protection for chemistry teachers.