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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Wednesday, 7 December 2005, in the House of Lords.

Terrorism Bill

Terrorism Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 1-18 agreed to, Clause 1 as amended. New clauses considered. Clause 19 under consideration. (Part 1 of 2)

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
676 c609-80 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Terrorism Bill
Wednesday, 7 December 2005
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c626 (Link to this contribution) It can be proved by the words one uses and also by the context. The noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c625-6 (Link to this contribution) I am very anxious to give my noble friend Lady Warwick and the noble Baronesses, Lady Williams and L...
Show all contributions (102)
Lord Elton | 676 c626 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s fairly convincing flow, but how is one expected to show that ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 676 c623 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who has made a broad sweep of her argument and...
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe | 676 c624-5 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak briefly to Amendments Nos. 21, 45 and 83. While I acknowledge that they may have som...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c620 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 21:"Page 2, line 34, at end insert—" ““(   )   Nothing in this section is inte...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c620-3 (Link to this contribution) I apologise that against the breaking wave of Peers leaving the Chamber I was a little slow in reach...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c619-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 676 c636 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make a general point before we leave this clause. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Thom...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c635-6 (Link to this contribution) I wish to add a further thought to the discussion between my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, t...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c637 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 23:"Page 2, line 48, at end insert ““knowingly””" The noble and learned Lord sa...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c636-7 (Link to this contribution) As I briefly introduced this debate, I think that it falls to me to wind up. The contribution of the...
Lord Judd | 676 c635 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is right to draw attention to the wider virtues put forward...
Lord Elton | 676 c634-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness invited me to defer my rather narrow point until a later time, which I think we h...
Lord Judd | 676 c635 (Link to this contribution) I think that when we deal with issues that are fundamental to human freedom, clarity and precision i...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c635 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree that the opportunities for discussion should be as wide as possible and th...
Lord Boston of Faversham | 676 c637-8 (Link to this contribution) As these amendments have been spoken to, I must take it that this amendment is moved, in case other ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c634 (Link to this contribution) I am minded to follow that which the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, and my noble friend Lord Greaves sai...
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe | 676 c645-7 (Link to this contribution) I add my support to Amendments Nos. 30 and 36. Many of the concerns expressed by the academic and li...
Lord Greaves | 676 c643-5 (Link to this contribution) I decided to pay closer attention to the Bill than I have done so far, particularly to Clause 2, whe...
Lord Eatwell | 676 c642-3 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness has acknowledged, she has placed the Committee at a considerable disadvantage....
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c642 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 30, which has my name attached to it. I very much agree with the noble Baron...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c641-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for that. Probing amendments may well be serious bu...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c641 (Link to this contribution) The fact that one tables a probing amendment does not mean that it is not serious.
Lord Goodhart | 676 c640-1 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to Amendments Nos. 30, 36 and 39, to which I wish to speak. They are not probing...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c639-40 (Link to this contribution) In supporting the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, I adduce two other points that it is i...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c638 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Kingsland | 676 c638-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 24:"Page 3, line 8, leave out ““a view”” and insert ““intent””" The noble Lord ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c626-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that that is necessary. We have already had some very detailed debates on the existin...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c627 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly table them as soon as I can. As is my usual practice, if we have time between Commi...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c627 (Link to this contribution) In that event, and given that considerable restrictions exist at Report stage, will the Minister giv...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c627-9 (Link to this contribution) I quite understand that that is the position. My position is that I have heard very clearly the view...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c627 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may or may not think that I am being helpful in what I am about to say. The purpose of ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c629 (Link to this contribution) It means that if he merely suspects or believes that something might be going on, that is not enough...
Bishop of Chester | 676 c629 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I could press the Minister on this point by asking for some definition of the word ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c630 (Link to this contribution) I was going to deal with this point, and I am happy to do so at this stage. All these offences in te...
Bishop of Chester | 676 c629-30 (Link to this contribution) : I want to press on an associated matter, picking up on a point made earlier by the noble Baroness,...
Lord Eatwell | 676 c630 (Link to this contribution) On the same point, I wonder whether my noble friend can help me. The British Library has received le...
Lord Judd | 676 c631 (Link to this contribution) As someone involved in university governance I very much welcome the whole approach that my noble fr...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c630-1 (Link to this contribution) It is a United Kingdom-wide jurisdiction. At the moment, as the noble Baroness knows, the position i...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 676 c630 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disturb the noble Baroness again. However, if she is doing that, could she also ensure...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c630 (Link to this contribution) We understand the concern about private prosecutions. Our intention is that only prosecutions that h...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 676 c633 (Link to this contribution) I would like to follow up what the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Greaves, said, because they raise...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 676 c632-3 (Link to this contribution) It did not seem to me that the noble Baroness actually said what was wrong with the approach of the ...
Lord Greaves | 676 c631-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has just extremely eloquently made one of the two points that I was risin...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c634 (Link to this contribution) In that case, her noble acquaintance has put the boot in from the back when she has done nothing apa...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 676 c634 (Link to this contribution) : I used to be the noble Baroness’s noble friend, and I am still a personal friend, but I am no long...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c678 (Link to this contribution) I am going to make a slightly different point from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, but it i...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c680 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving the Motion, may I suggest that the Committee s...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c679-80 (Link to this contribution) I begin by accepting entirely the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom, ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c678-9 (Link to this contribution) I want to deal with the issue of culture, which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. I a...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c668-70 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 49:"Page 5, line 7, at end insert ““other than where the publication or the cond...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c668 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her explanation. I should say that I have been given some in...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c673 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I am pleased to hear that discussions are con...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c671-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his careful exposition of his amendments and the way in which he has brou...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c674 (Link to this contribution) Our names are added to the amendment and we wholly endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said ...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c673-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 53:"Page 5, line 17, leave out ““, in the opinion of the constable giving it,””"...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c675-6 (Link to this contribution) I have a certain problem with the proposals. The interpolation of judicial authority relates to a no...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c674-5 (Link to this contribution) I make a very small point in support of my noble friend’s amendment, but it is an important one. Inc...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c677-8 (Link to this contribution) Is this not one step away from an ASBO issued by a policeman on his own opinion and judgment? As my ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c676-7 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble and learned Lord’s caution for the reasons he gives. Of course, the notice we...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c650 (Link to this contribution) It is because of the way in which these issues have arisen. Having been intimately involved in readi...
Lord Eatwell | 676 c650 (Link to this contribution) I am terribly sorry but I really do not understand the content of the noble Baroness’s answer to the...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c650 (Link to this contribution) I am not happy with this question being dealt with as part of a defence. I think that this is possib...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c649 (Link to this contribution) That is why I say that paragraph (c) helps us. Let us take a concrete example involving someone who ...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c649 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interfere again. Under subsection (9)(b) and (c), he has to prove that the publication...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c647-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I have listened carefully to the concerns that have been ex...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c649 (Link to this contribution) Subsection (9), like provisions elsewhere in the Bill, refers to the ““views”” of a person. In what ...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c653 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that the real danger is not so much wrongful prosecutions, which probably w...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c653-4 (Link to this contribution) I sincerely hope not. I hope that, not only from what I have said but from what will be in the Bill,...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 676 c654 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to make a speech or prolong this debate but perhaps what the noble Baroness said about...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c654 (Link to this contribution) The burden will be on the prosecution to prove the offence. The burden placed on the defendant in re...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c651 (Link to this contribution) I wish to follow up what I think is a very important point that has been made by the noble Lord, Lor...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c651-2 (Link to this contribution) Let us be absolutely clear about this. In relation to prosecutions it is the duty of those who prose...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 676 c652 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness please look at this again, because there may be two misunderstandings? The f...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c652-3 (Link to this contribution) The defendant, if he is charged and the matter comes before the court, would have to prove his defen...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c651 (Link to this contribution) I know, because the noble Lord is still in practice, that he is very conversant with the way in whic...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c651 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the Minister, the question of the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, was whether...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c650-1 (Link to this contribution) Clearly it is not. That is why we have set out the defences in Clause 2, as I have just indicated. T...
Lord Eatwell | 676 c657-8 (Link to this contribution) As chairman of the British Library, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, for her kin...
Bishop of Winchester | 676 c658 (Link to this contribution) I welcome everything that the noble Baroness said on the amendment. I noted that she spoke of the ex...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c655-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 43:"Page 4, line 30, at end insert—" ““(e)   that the publication to which the...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c660-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 46:"After Clause 2, insert the following new clause—" ““DEFINITION OF TERRORIS...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 676 c661-2 (Link to this contribution) I am intrigued by the amendment, because although its objective is to produce a new definition of te...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c658-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and the right rele...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c659-60 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his remarks, but I am rather disappointed. It is an issue to which we shall...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c655 (Link to this contribution) I am more than happy to write to the noble Lord at length on this matter.
Lord Kingsland | 676 c655 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it will be necessary for the noble Baroness to write at length. I think that, on...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c654-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her comprehensive reply to this group of amendments. So far as concer...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 676 c662-3 (Link to this contribution) I am not convinced that it is. We have a definition of terrorism in the 2000 Act. Talking to the exp...
Lord Elton | 676 c663 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord, Lord Harris, be satisfied if the definition of terrorism in the 2000 Act were ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c663-4 (Link to this contribution) That is correct. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, for tabling these amendments b...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said that we did not need to deal with the definition now because the n...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c665-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 47:"Page 5, line 2, leave out from ““applies”” to end of line." The noble Lord ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c666-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for explaining how he believes this provision could or should work. Perhaps I...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c662 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Perhaps this is something that we should be dealing ...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 676 c662 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for that intervention and I understand his point. I dwelt on it beca...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c662 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord. Will he address one of the greatest difficulties that the Comm...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c649-50 (Link to this contribution) I am seeking to demonstrate how these two issues would operate together. The noble Lord presses the ...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 676 c663 (Link to this contribution) My understanding was that the definition of terrorism in the 2000 Act would prevail.
Lord Kingsland | 676 c626 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. She indicated on Monday that she was going to bring forward amen...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c633-4 (Link to this contribution) : I apologise for arriving slightly late, but I am moved to defend the noble Baroness. She comes for...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Crimes of violence Crimes against property ICT Jurisdiction Incitement Fines Libraries Internet Journalism Police Prosecutions Publications Sentencing Universities Terrorism Training Research Students Academic freedom Propaganda Encouragement of terrorism Bookshops
Legislation
Terrorism Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk