---

Terrorism Bill

I thank the Minister for his remarks, but I am rather disappointed. It is an issue to which we shall have to return for the reasons set out, I think very cogently, by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. As he pointed out, if intent were in the clause we would not be pressing the amendment. But it is not and we need to protect the British Library. Let me just express my—how can I put it?—disappointment with one thing that the otherwise dogged and, I think, highly loyal defence of the Bill put up by the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland. We are not seeking comfort; we are seeking a major protection for the freedom of speech and expression in this country. If it were merely comfort, none of us would be sitting here hour after hour debating this Bill. It is not about comfort, it is about freedom. That needs to be said very loudly and clearly. It is also about not discouraging the great library experiment to continue to build in the way that it is already trying to do. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and my noble friend Lord Goodhart could not have made clearer that one of the great problems that we confront at every stage of the Bill is what we have described over and over again as the chilling effect. It is not that librarians would not want to do everything that they could to support the Government in the battle against terrorism; it is that if they face the possibility of up to seven years in prison because they may not have taken every last step that they can to ensure that something does not happen, that has a terrifying curbing effect. We cannot pretend that that is not so. As I mentioned at Second Reading—I will not go on about it—those of us who lived through McCarthyism in universities in the United States saw it happen. We saw how career after career, ambition after ambition, aspiration after aspiration simply curled up and died in the face of the massive punishments that were given to people, a great many of whom later turned out to have been wholly innocent. I will withdraw the amendment, with every intention to bring it back if the Government cannot see their way to embody intent in Clause 2. Again, I do so not for reasons of comfort, but because the whole House needs to take a stand to defend some of our finest heritage and liberties. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 45 and 46 not moved.] Clause 2 agreed to.