---

Terrorism Bill

moved Amendment No. 75:"Page 8, line 4, after ““liable”” insert—" ““(a)””    The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment is grouped with Amendments Nos. 76 to 78. It is a probing amendment to discover the policy considerations for subsection (3), which, as the clause is presently framed, provides in relation to the offence of preparation of terrorist acts that:"““A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life””." The effect of the amendments in this group would be to cause subsection (3) to read as follows:"““A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable,""      (a) on conviction on indictment, to a term of imprisonment or to a fine or to both;""      (b) on summary conviction in England and Wales to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both;""      (c) a summary conviction in Scotland or Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both””." Members of the Committee will observe that that form, which incorporates penalties, first, for the sentence on conviction on indictment and, secondly, for providing for summary proceedings and the appropriate penalties, echoes the provisions, for example, of Clauses 1(8), 2(10), 6(5) and 8(4) of this Bill and provisions of the Terrorism Act 2000—in particular, of Section 54, which relates to weapon training, and Section 57, which concerns possession for terrorist purposes. It is important to consider what the offence is. The offence is in these terms in subsection (1):"““A person commits an offence if, with the intention of—""      (a) committing acts of terrorism, or""      (b) assisting another to commit such acts,""he engages in any conduct in preparation for giving effect to his intention””." Therefore, the conduct does not have to be concerned with the preparation for an act of terrorism by the individual himself. It can be committed by one who assists another to commit such acts. Would this offence catch conduct by way of assistance by, for example, providing a safe house for the other from which to proceed to commit an act of terrorism? That is familiar in drug dealing where, for instance, the individual is a wife or some other person who acts under pressure, but not necessarily under duress. Such offending could be looked at as being of lesser criminality than that of the individual who was preparing to commit the act of the terrorism, and would call for a proportionately lower penalty. I invite the Minister to advise me about the policy considerations for Clause 5(3) as presently drafted. It appears to restrict prosecution to proceedings by way of indictment, to provide for a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment, to exclude summary procedure and not to provide for the range of penalties provided in Clauses 1, 2, 6 and 8. I should pause to observe that if one looks at Clause 6, which involves training for terrorism, it appears that one is talking about conduct of the order of that in Clause 5. Training for terrorism, for instance, is involved in providing,"““instruction or training in any of the skills mentioned in subsection (3)””." The skills included in Clause 6(3)(b) are,"““the use of any method or technique for doing anything else that is capable of being done for the purposes of terrorism, in connection with the commission or preparation of an act of terrorism or Convention offence or in connection with assisting the commission or preparation by another of such an act or offence””." Similarly, in Clause 8, which is concerned with attendance at a place used for terrorist training, one finds that the requirements of Clause 8(2) are satisfied in relation to a person if,"““he knows or believes that instruction or training is being provided there wholly or partly for purposes connected with the commission or preparation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences””." Clause 8(3) sets out that it is immaterial,"““whether the person concerned receives the instruction or training himself””" and,"““whether the instruction or training is provided for purposes connected with one or more particular acts of terrorism or Convention offences . . . generally””." As I pointed out, in Clauses 6 and 8, there is provision for a range of penalties from lengthy terms of imprisonment down to fines on summary procedure. For the assistance of the Committee, I should perhaps indicate that I have tabled further amendments that relate to similar provisions in Clauses 9, 10, 11 and 14. It might be of assistance to the Committee if, in response, the Minister could give some indication of how these matters stand as regards penal policy for those four clauses. That might assist me in deciding what to do about those amendments when we come to them. I beg to move.