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Armed Forces Bill

My Lords, the very point I seek to make is that the European court has held that the system is not compliant. It is not enough for the Minister to come here three or four days later and say ““I believe it to be compliant”” when the European court has held otherwise. It is therefore for the Government to make a proper response. For that reason I will not be pressing Amendment No. 31 tonight. On the broader issues, of course I accept that there should be a military disciplinary system. I said in Committee that it is right that defendants should be tried in such a way overseas. The point about Amendment No. 30 is that it relates to offences in this country—murder and rape in this country. Why should a defendant, because he is a soldier as opposed to a policeman or a postman, find that somebody chooses to try him by a court martial rather than allowing him the greater procedural safeguards in the Crown Court? The most obvious procedural safeguard, which we will debate shortly, is the requirement for unanimity in a jury or a majority verdict of 10 to two. As your Lordships are aware, in a court martial only a simple majority is required. If five officers sit they can decide guilt by three to two—or innocence by three to two if it comes to that. Similarly, if three are sitting they can decide on offences—to which life imprisonment is annexed for offences committed in this country, if the amendment to the Act that the Government propose goes through—by a simple majority. Why should a serviceman, or a civilian subject to service discipline, be tried on these important issues for an offence committed in this country by a number of officers, with perhaps one warrant officer sitting in? Maybe we should go back to Cromwell's days. Maybe the court martial system is so great that we should get rid of juries altogether and have military commissions sitting all over the country deciding guilt or innocence. The fact that a person is a serviceman or the son, daughter or wife of a serviceman, should not mean that he is to be treated differently for an offence committed in this country. That is Amendment No. 30. I will come back to that because, as I said, I wish to broaden the area of the exceptions. Amendment No. 35 extends slightly a provision that has existed in our law for 150 years, since 1861. No reason given by the Government for rejecting any of these amendments carries any logical sense other than to state over and over again that we must keep military discipline. That is not, in my submission, a proper way to approach legislation of this sort. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 30. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.