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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 31 October 2006, in the House of Lords.

Armed Forces Bill

Armed Forces Bill. Lords report stage (HL Bill 163 2005-06)

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
686 c167-240 
Session
2005-06
Department
Ministry of Defence
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Garden | 686 c217 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I supported the noble Earl in Committee on what seemed a sensible amendment, seeking to ha...
Earl Attlee | 686 c216-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 36: Page 66, line 4, leave out ““90”” and insert ““60”” The noble Earl said: ...
Show all contributions (116)
Earl Attlee | 686 c218-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am still a bit disappointed. The Minister mentioned actual bodily harm. It is sensible t...
Lord Drayson | 686 c217-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there has been much interest in the position of the commanding officer in the military cri...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c213-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. That is no mere trite acknowledgeme...
Lord Kingsland | 686 c214 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 33 and 34 are amendments to Amendment No. 32 in the name of my noble frien...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c214 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment No. 32, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c214-5 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 35: After Clause 50, insert the following new clause- ““EXTRA-TERRITORIAL JURIS...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c210-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord says that rules of engagement change and so they do, but what is the status...
Lord Drayson | 686 c211-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and I will address his point in a moment. Rules of engagem...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c224 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does that go for the other services?
Earl Attlee | 686 c224 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s amendments in this group, which are welcome. I do not sup...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c222-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, other matters arise in this grouping. The noble Lord, Lord Drayson, has followed some of t...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c224 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak to Amendment No. 58. We have tabled the amendment again as it concerns an iss...
Earl Attlee | 686 c221 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garden, for his comments on the amendment....
Lord Drayson | 686 c221-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 49: Page 75, line 36, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert- ““(1) In t...
Lord Garden | 686 c220 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the fact that the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has moved his amendment on administra...
Lord Drayson | 686 c220-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 38 to 48 seek to create a right of appeal to a form of tribunal against ce...
Earl Attlee | 686 c219-20 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 38: After Clause 153, insert the following new clause- ““CHAPTER 5 THE ADMINIS...
Lord Garden | 686 c230 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I mean an independent member in the same sense as in the clause. Perhaps an independent me...
Earl Attlee | 686 c230 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when the noble Lords refers to an independent member, does he mean someone with no militar...
Lord Boyce | 686 c225-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will make one or two comments about some amendments in the group. First, the noble Lord,...
Lord Drayson | 686 c226-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will now deal with Amendments Nos. 50, 51 and 58, which relate to how membership of the ...
Countess of Mar | 686 c228 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 52 and 53 have been entered wrongly on the Marshalled List, so I shall fir...
Lord Drayson | 686 c228 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 53: Page 76, line 8, leave out ““other members of the court”” and insert ““lay...
Lord Drayson | 686 c228-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 54: Page 76, line 9, at end insert- ““(4A) The number of lay members specified...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c229 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 57: Page 77, line 33, leave out from ““cha...
Lord Garden | 686 c229-30 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 61: Page 171, line 6, at end insert ““or ( ) an independent member (see subsec...
Lord Drayson | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can help the House. I am happy to debate this matter at Third Reading.
Lord Drayson | 686 c230-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 61 to 63 would require an independent member to be present on all service ...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c232 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we oppose the amendments in this group, which are an unnecessary addition, given the prese...
Lord Drayson | 686 c232-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we now return to what I previously called a key part of the Bill, on which I have written ...
Lord Garden | 686 c231 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not believe that the Minister said anything new this evening compared with his previo...
Lord Garden | 686 c231-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 66: Before Clause 338, insert the following new clause- ““SERVICE COMPLAINTS C...
Earl Attlee | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not clear whether we are to debate this amendment or not.
Lord Garden | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, under pressure from various sides, in view of the time, I was attempting—
Lord Garden | 686 c234-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I now find myself somewhat confused about ...
Lord Garden | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 68: After Clause 340, insert the following new clause- ““SPECIAL PROVISION FOR...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c237-8 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 70: After Clause 343, insert the following new clause- ““RECORDS OF EVACUEES Th...
Lord Garden | 686 c237 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. We at last seem to be getting towards a consensus on a way ...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c238 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also support this amendment, which, as my noble friend Lord Attlee said, he moved in Com...
Earl Attlee | 686 c238 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s flattery in tabling an amendment I tabled in Committee....
Lord Kingsland | 686 c236 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also lend our support to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Garden. As he indicated, ...
Baroness D'Souza | 686 c236 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is on the amendment, so it will come as no surprise to your Lordships that I suppo...
Earl Attlee | 686 c236-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the thrust of these amendments. For myself, I would be happier if the provision ...
Lord Garden | 686 c235-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 69: After Clause 340, insert the following new clause- ““FLIGHTS BY FOREIGN AI...
Lord Garden | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c240 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 73 and 74: Page 188, line 13, after ““sections”” insert ““36,”” Page 188, ...
Lord Inge | 686 c240 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that encouraging reply, particularly what he said about an induct...
Lord Drayson | 686 c239-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I recognise the strength of feeling on this important matter. As noble Lords and noble and...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c239 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is also on this amendment. The background of the Director of Service Prosecutions ...
Lord Boyce | 686 c239 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment moved by my noble and gallant friend Lord Inge. It is important th...
Lord Inge | 686 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 71: Page 185, line 10, at end insert- ““(2A) A person may be appointed as the ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c238 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is, in fact, in my name, so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave...
Lord Drayson | 686 c238 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I said in Committee, I recognise absolutely the deep importance of properly recording c...
Lord Garden | 686 c186-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 19: Page 5, line 19, leave out ““life”” and insert ““ten years”” The noble Lo...
Lord Drayson | 686 c188 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I have already said, in Clause 8 we have sought to modernise and limit the offence of d...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c187 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we cannot support the amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Garden, acknowledged in Committee...
Lord Garden | 686 c188 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his not unexpected reply. I do not doubt that in the past his pre...
Lord Garden | 686 c190-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 21: Page 9, line 30, after ““orders”” insert ““or advice”” The noble Lord sai...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c191 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garden, for again giving the House the opportunity t...
Viscount Slim | 686 c192 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garden. My previous remarks on performance-enhancing...
Lord Drayson | 686 c192-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 21 and 22 seek to make it a defence that a drug was taken on the advice of...
Lord Garden | 686 c193 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the very helpful response to both questions that I raise...
Lord Drayson | 686 c193-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27: Page 16, line 13, leave out ““or”” The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c202-4 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 32: After Clause 49, insert the following new clause- Compliance with orders an...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c201-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the very point I seek to make is that the European court has held that the system is not c...
Lord Ramsbotham | 686 c206 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am particularly anxious to get at least into the proceedings of the House, if not into t...
Lord Kingsland | 686 c204-6 (Link to this contribution) moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 32, Amendment No. 33: Line 2, at end insert- ““( ) The rul...
Lord Drayson | 686 c200-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, but I thought that it was important to make that point. ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c209-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would be difficult for me to overstate the importance of this subject, which is why we ...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 686 c207 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these are ingenious amendments or, more accurately, a new clause and amendments. If they a...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c208 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are very sympathetic with the thinking behind these amendments, although we are not ver...
Lord Blaker | 686 c208-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate, but one point is not being sufficiently st...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 686 c209 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. I cannot help wondering whether,...
Earl Attlee | 686 c195 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, am grateful for the amendment. One of its advantages is that most people in the Ar...
Lord Drayson | 686 c194 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is right to be alive to the nuances of such language. I am focused on this ...
Lord Garden | 686 c194 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, We, too, welcome the amendment. The Minister wrote to me on 23 October to explain how he h...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c194 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these necessary amendments extend the scope of Clause 36 and the offence of inaccurate cer...
Lord Drayson | 686 c199-200 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I accept the noble Lord’s point. In the Martin case there were other factors. Besides his ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c200 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment does not confine itself to civilians. It refers, as does the current Army Ac...
Lord Drayson | 686 c199 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an important matter, so I will speak to it in some detail. Amendment No. 31 seeks ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c199 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister accept that cases are being tried in this country in which witnesses are...
Lord Drayson | 686 c195 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 28: Page 16, line 14, at end insert ““; or (d) any equipment of a description ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c195-9 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 30: Page 18, line 34, at end insert- ““(1A) A person shall not be charged with ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 686 c186 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister most sincerely for the way in which he has sought to r...
Lord Garden | 686 c184 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not yet spoken to my amendment about life imprisonment. It is in a separate group.
Lord Drayson | 686 c185-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, asked two questions about ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c183-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to disagree. Although it is right that we should confine ourselves so far as we can ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c184 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have sought in Clause 8 to modernise and limit the offence of desertion. The first chan...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c183 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I follow my noble friend Lord Garden in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Judd, on his u...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c183 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what is really worrying me is that there is a convention on Report that one does not go in...
Lord Archer of Sandwell | 686 c180-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the noble Lord will forgive me, I hope to come to something approaching his question in...
Lord Garden | 686 c182-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I said in Committee, the amendment tabled by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, Am...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c180 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is for clarification. That affects the constitutional position, I think. Does the nob...
Earl Attlee | 686 c167-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: Page 1, line 7, leave out ““lawful”” and insert ““reasonable”” The noble E...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c168 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have some sympathy with these amendments but perhaps the same position might be met in ...
Earl Attlee | 686 c169 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister, but my basic point is that ““implied authority”” must be th...
Lord Drayson | 686 c168-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I explained to the noble Earl in Committee, and as he correctly quoted, we believe that...
Lord Drayson | 686 c171-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 4, 4A and 6 change the substance of the offence of obstructing operations....
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c169-71 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 4: Page 2, line 42, at beginning insert ““without lawful excuse,”” The noble L...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c172 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not heard an explanation that satisfies me about the distinction between Clauses 3(...
Lord Drayson | 686 c175 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13: Page 4, line 39, leave out from ““when”” to end of line 40 and insert ““a ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c175 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 12: Page 4, line 27, leave out ““this section”” and insert““subsection (2)”” ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 686 c174 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for taking note of the points that I raised in Committee. I am happy ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c174 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11: Page 4, line 17, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert- ““(1) A per...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c179 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I oppose Amendment No. 18. We have heard another passionate and lengthy recital, as happen...
Lord Judd | 686 c177-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 18, which is in this group. Ideally, I should have liked to...
Lord Craig of Radley | 686 c175-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 14: Page 5, line 7, leave out subsections (2) to (5) and insert- ““(2) For the...
Baroness Hayman | 686 c175 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must advise the House that if Amendment No. 14 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments No...
Lord Archer of Sandwell | 686 c179-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not previously intervened in your Lordships’ debates on this Bill. My plea in mitig...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c179 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fully support Amendment No. 14 tabled by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radle...
Lord Drayson | 686 c229 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 56: Page 77, line 28, leave out ““one or more”” On Question, amendment agreed...
Lord Drayson | 686 c237 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment once again raises issues such as extraordinary rendition, as well as interna...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c168 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s amendments. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew said in...
Earl Attlee | 686 c224-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, generally speaking, the other services, on average, have more intelligent servicemen. That...
Subjects
Complaints Disciplinary proceedings Disclosure of information Criminal proceedings Discipline Crime Alcoholic drinks Detainees Armed forces Age Conduct Deployment Courts martial Civilians Desertion Certification Defence equipment Jurisdiction Drugs International law Membership Prisoners Misuse Life imprisonment Officers Sentencing Tribunals Young people Rules of engagement
Legislation
Armed Forces Bill 2005-06
Link
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