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Armed Forces Bill

My Lords, other matters arise in this grouping. The noble Lord, Lord Drayson, has followed some of the suggestions made in Committee, for which I am grateful. However, I say in traditional Liberal Democrat tones that he does not go far enough. The points of principle to which I refer in Amendments Nos. 50 and 51 are important. I imagine that to those who have been in the services and have sat on courts martial it must seem very odd that in America a court martial can consist of a cross-section of the Armed Forces, as opposed to officers and warrant officers. However, as I said previously, if one looks at the matter from the point of view of the defendant who is seeking a fair trial, there is a basic principle involved. The basic principle as set out in Magna Carta is that he should be tried by his peers. The private soldier who appears before officers cannot expect them to have the same understanding of the circumstances in which he committed offences as a jury drawn from a cross-section of the community, particularly if he is charged with a civil offence. I pose again the point I made in Committee. First, would it not seem odd for a policeman to be charged or tried by senior police officers or for firemen to be tried by senior fire officers, or for someone working in the City to be tried by senior accountants or financiers from the City? Throughout the community it can always be said, ““We are part of a special group. We have special rules that only we understand. Therefore, it is only right that we should be the people who try the underling who is brought before us because of his misdemeanours. We are part of such an arcane mini-society that only we can understand the matter””. That is not the principle on which the criminal law generally acts in this country. Whatever a person’s position, when he is brought before the ordinary criminal courts of this country he is tried by a cross-section of the community with wide experience of all matters and he can expect them to have a full understanding of his background and position. Secondly, Amendment No. 51 proposes that the court martial should consist of a cross-services section of people. I understand that there is a considerable desire in the services for them to remain separate. They have different traditions in many regards, which we respect. But surely the armed services should be looked at as a whole in the context of a Bill which brings them together for the purposes of courts martial and criminal proceedings. A Director of Service Prosecutions covers all branches of the services. Amendment No. 58, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Astor, suggests that, "““Court Martial rules must make provision for the majority of the Court Martial panel to be drawn from the defendant’s own service””." That seems inappropriate. Surely it is right that experience across the services should be shared and that there should not develop one level of understanding or of justice in one service and another level in another. I shall not pursue Amendment No. 52 at all. Amendment No. 55 would simply require the qualifications for membership of the court martial to be limited to a serving member of the Armed Forces without reference to rank or position. In Committee I pointed out that that is the position in the United States, and has been for many years. I see no reason why we should not move to a more egalitarian system in courts martial in this country. My final point, on Amendment No. 57, is very different. It is on majority verdicts. I have already spoken about that today, and I am not going to repeat what I said. It is the most distinctive part of courts martial that the decision is by a simple majority. I know the verdict is decided by simple majority in Scotland, but there are 15 jurors there. There are simple majorities in some of the continental systems, but we have always thought our system of trial by12 jurors to be superior to systems where only a few people sit. Magistrates courts in this country deal with 95 per cent of criminal cases, but they have very limited powers and deal with minor offences. If courts martial confined themselves to disciplinary matters, which take up most of the first part of the Bill, and did not get involved in civil offences, I would have a different attitude. However, where murder, manslaughter, rape and so on can be charged, and where prosecutions can proceed before courts martial, it is only right that majorities, as set out in Amendment No. 57, should be required before guilty findings are made. I have said as much as I need to without repeating what I said in Committee.