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Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

That is interesting and characteristically helpful. It advances us a little because the Explanatory Notes make, as far as I can discern, no reference at all to heritage responsibilities for the Marine Management Organisation. My noble friend has given us a positive indication. I hope that he will think very carefully whether he needs to be more specific and more concrete in this legislation. On too many occasions in the past, we have missed our legislative opportunity. My understanding is—this is buried in our heritage of legislation—that in the Protection of Wrecks Act 1973 the Government and Parliament simply forgot to equip English Heritage or its predecessor body with a competence in underwater archaeology, so we had to stumble along with a very inadequate provision. I tried to remedy that when I was a Minister in DCMS in bringing forward the Culture and Recreation Bill in 2000. It was based on much consultation, a complete consensus between various professional bodies and institutes which were interested and between the political parties. Sadly, as we ran up against the buffers of the 2001 election, the party opposite, the Conservative Opposition, was unwilling to give the legislation a fair wind. I was cross, at the time, but I shall give them the benefit of the doubt; perhaps they were right to say that one should never wave through legislation and that it ought to be scrutinised. At all events, we were unable to get it on the statute book at that time. Happily, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, took up the cause in a Private Member’s Bill which became the National Heritage Act 2002, which put on the statute book some of the relevant provisions which had been in the Culture and Recreation Bill. The upshot is that under existing legislation, English Heritage is empowered to use resources to protect and conserve submerged marine monuments. It makes recommendations about the designation of shipwreck sites and areas around them of historic and archaeological importance and it administers licences granted by the Secretary of State. This is enormously important in relation to our national history identity and culture. It is part of our island story—if I may use the phrase—and of our history as a seafaring people. That still applies in the age of air travel, the Channel Tunnel, globalisation and digital communication, no less than it did before. Our maritime heritage is massively important. Amendment 33 rightly requires the MMO to have regard, among other matters, to heritage and marine archaeology. When the Minister winds up, will he explain rather more fully how he envisages that the existing powers and duties of English Heritage will fit into the new structure that the Bill creates and whether those powers will be enhanced or extended? To give a small, practical instance, on which I think the noble Baroness touched in her Second Reading speech, English Heritage does not collect information or advise on historic environment issues in areas beyond the territorial limits of the UK territorial sea. However, the MMO would need to have such information. Who will be empowered, and who will have a duty, to collect that information? What can we expect in the MMO’s statement of public participation about the division of labour and the complementarity of the responsibilities of, for instance, English Heritage and the MMO? My noble friend observed that sensible people and sensible organisations work together willingly enough, and that is true, but sometimes it is not very easy for them. It depends on the terms of reference set for them by legislation and by their department’s policy and on whether they have the budgets to carry out the work. Can my noble friend assure us that Defra and DCMS are truly shoulder to shoulder in relation to underwater archaeology and the historic maritime heritage and will operate their policies coherently? Among the major functions of the MMO will be the planning function. That will take place within the context of a marine policy statement. We understand that the marine policy statement will be a statement of policy for the Government as a whole. But can my noble friend give me the reassurance I seek in relation to the maritime heritage? Will sustainable development in marine planning terms explicitly include sustaining the cultural heritage as well as the natural heritage? Will the licensing duties to protect the environment protect the marine historic environment? Will marine conservation zones take account of existing designations in conserving the marine historic environment? Is that what Defra contemplates as well as the DCMS? If so, how will it work, and who will do what? I do not expect the Minister to be able to answer all these questions here and now, but these are important issues that are usefully prompted by this amendment. Will the inshore fisheries and conservation authorities be required to safeguard the historic environment in co-operation with the MMO, English Heritage, local authorities and others? These are simply some of the issues that are implicit in this helpful Amendment 33. I do not know whether the Government wish to accept it, or something like it. I have noticed that Governments are always rather resistant to what they call catalogues, but the Committee expects the provisions of this legislation to be considerably more precise, indicative and concrete than they appear to be at the moment. I would not dream of using the same language as the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, in any animadversions I might offer on the drafting of the Bill. We will be able to return in greater detail—indeed, in greater elaboration—to these issues in subsequent amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, to which I have had the pleasure of adding my name. For now, it would be helpful if the Minister would look forward and give us an initial account of his thinking in this regard.