---

Sustainable Railways

I wish to put on the record, Sir Nicholas, my thanks to you as co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on the west coast main line. It has been a hard road and it has taken a long time, but I think you will agree that we now have a line of which we can be proud—although I am not sure whether you got the improvements to Macclesfield station, Sir Nicholas. The Government were brave to bring out a 30-year plan—although I suspect we might have 15, 16 or 17 Secretaries of State before it reaches the end of its term. I am looking forward to reading the plan in 30 years' time—in fact, it will be in 28 years' time because it has been out two years. However, it already looks dated in some ways. I looked at the report, which I think we published last August, and that also seems dated in some ways because at that time we were talking about electrification. I think oil would have then been about $150 a barrel and we were talking about $200. Of course, now it is probably $40 or $45. The argument in that respect was probably wrong. We were also looking forward to railway expansion. Today, we have been talking about the franchising companies possibly handing their franchise back because there has been a reduction in the numbers. However, those are the future plans. We have to ignore such minor blips and concentrate on the 30-year plan because we will get out of the recession and oil prices will go up again. The Government got it wrong in two cases: first, in relation to the electrification itself and, secondly, in relation to the high speed line. To give the Government credit, they have put it right in both instances. Those of us who heard the Secretary of State's statement today will have noticed that he mentioned the electrification of the main line to the midlands—the Midland Mainline—and the First Great Western. Those were not included in the plan two years ago. In fact, doing so was frowned upon—the Government were not brave enough. Of course, there is also high speed line 2. We are going to have high speed 10 taken out at Companies House, but that was not in the document at all at the time—it was exactly the other way. When we saw St. Pancras station and high speed 1 come in on budget and on time, we realised that that was the way forward. The Government have to be congratulated on putting those two things right. I want to concentrate on a couple of issues today. I have heard many hon. Members talk about the high fares that we pay and then I heard them say, ““But, we need extra improvements””—for example, in my or their constituency. I am not sure that we can both keep fares low and make improvements. The fact is that we have increased the public subsidy going into the railways from £1 billion to nearly £6 billion in the past ten years. The idea that we will not have to pay a public subsidy, which was the promise given by the Conservative was, of course, nonsense. It is right to say that we can keep fares low and not increase subsidy. However, if we do that, what we cannot do is improve the railways. The reality is that if we keep fares low and do not increase the subsidy, we will have a declining railway, which happened for probably 30 years after the war. We cannot let that happen. The other thing that we must not forget is that in my constituency, for example, where public transport is by bus, people will often not use a train from one year to the other, and parents will say that they are taking their children on the train for a treat. Are we really saying that people who never use trains should pay extra taxes for those who do? I am not sure what the answer is—although I am sure that the Minister will try to give us one. We have to be careful about saying that fares are too high. No one says that we should put more subsidy in, but that is what we mean. If we do not increase fares or increase the subsidy, we will have a declining railway.