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Antisocial Behaviour

I shall brief. Let me begin by declaring my usual interest as a practising lawyer and as one who sits part-time, traditionally, in a number of criminal jurisdictions. A week or two ago, in the middle of the afternoon, I was on a train 20 or so miles south of the centre of London. A group of about five young people got on. I think that there were two or three young girls of 13 or 14, and a couple of young boys of about the same age. They had been drinking. They sat almost next to me. Within seconds all their feet were on the seats, and within seconds the language was becoming fruitier and fruitier and less and less pleasant. I put up with that for a couple of stations, and then three points occurred to me. The first—given that the behaviour was pretty nasty—was that I was not sure where I could get hold of a guard. Secondly, I asked myself whether I should I intervene. I do not know whether my colleagues would have intervened, but I lost my nerve on the off chance that I would get thumped. Thirdly, I thought to myself "Wait a minute: what has gone wrong here? All we are talking about is the fact that someone, somewhere, has not taught these young people how to behave properly in public, and it is a real shame." I watched them get off the train a couple of stations later: a nice-looking, young bunch who might make quite a lot of life. But they had behaved so badly on the train, and I was not even sure that they had noticed what they were doing. We have heard a great deal about ASBOs tonight. We have heard a great deal about their effectiveness or otherwise in relation to antisocial behaviour. I remember when they were introduced. Indeed, I have had to administer a few myself. They have a place in life—the Minister said so, and I agree with him—but there are an awful lot of breaches. The overall figure is 50 per cent., and in the case of youngsters aged 10 to 17 it is nearly 65 per cent. Actually, I am not sure that I like the idea of a 10-year-old being subject to an ASBO. There must be other, better methods. Nevertheless, there are breaches. In 2005, 4,000 ASBOs were issued and 2,100 were breached. In 2006, 2,700 were issued and 1,800 were breached. Earlier, the Minister spoke of tougher action from the Government for those who breach ASBOs. He will know that already in the magistrates court breach of an ASBO carries a sentence of six months. He will also know that in the Crown court it carries a sentence of five years. Tremendous penalties are available to the courts, and I do not think that we need to toughen them up. We have also heard a great deal about new measures, but the question for me is not how we intervene in relation to antisocial behaviour, but when we intervene. In my view, the earlier we do so the better. For years in the House, I have heard about the introduction of new measures by successive Governments. I have heard about new policies, new orders from the courts, acceptable behaviour orders, parenting orders, referral orders, grounding orders, websites, helplines and night courts. The list of initiatives is endless. But does it get us anywhere? I do not think it does, and I think that most people out there in the community realise that that sort of top-down approach is not really effective.