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Queen’s Speech

My Lords, I start by echoing the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, in offering my congratulations to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, on their maiden speeches. From these Benches we look forward to hearing them on many more occasions. I also offer my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead—I know I must not call him "and gallant", because I will be ticked off by my noble friend Lord Ferrers—on sitting pluckily through every single speech in the debate, bar one quick trip outside, no doubt to get some refreshment. It brought to mind, if I may make another naval reference, the lines about, "The boy stood on the burning deck, Whence all but he had fled". His Benches did look rather empty at times. We offer our congratulations to him on at least staying there and listening to everything that has been said in this pretty wide-ranging debate, which has gone beyond the Queen’s Speech, as is right and proper on these occasions. Looking at the brief notes that I took down, I see that a great many people have spoken on the subject of the House of Lords, some in detail on Lords procedures. We had interesting suggestions from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, on that topic, some of which were quite sound, such as the suggestion that Bills coming from the Commons should be marked as to whether they had been considered in certain parts by the Commons and whether we should therefore not be revising but looking at them as new. Other suggestions I was not quite so happy with. We have covered a great deal of ground—House of Lords reform, Al Megrahi, policing, flooding, MPs’ expenses, the growth in the power of the Prime Minister—and there was a general feeling from a great many, which was echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, that there was too much legislation coming out of this Government, a lot of which was very ill considered. That was highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, when she reminded the House that pieces of the new Crime and Security Bill amend the Policing and Crime Act that was passed only last Session. No doubt large chunks of that Act have not yet been brought into effect, as is true of a great many other Bills that have emanated from the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice; and if they are brought into effect, they will be amended or removed by later Bills. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, said that there was a veritable torrent of ill-considered legislation, which is something that we should look into. I raise that particular point because, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, reminded us at the beginning of the debate, this is a short Session. To assist him, I remind him that we probably have fewer than 40 days that can be given over to legislative business between now and the last possible date at which the Government can call an election. We all know that they could even call it before then, so 40 days is an optimistic estimate of the amount of time the Government have. The Government have brought forward in the Queen’s Speech some 13 or 14 new Bills and draft Bills as well as a number of Bills that have been carried over, which we will get to later when we come to the Constitutional Reform Bill. Will the noble Lord, Lord West, tell us what the Government’s priority is in terms of the Bills they want to see on the statute book? We already know that some will start in this House and some will be carried over. However, it is right and proper for the Government to tell us not only which of these Home Office and Ministry of Justice Bills they want to see on the statute book but all the Bills that are before us. Those of us who take an interest in Home Office and justice affairs have had four Bills highlighted before us today that we will have to deal with, but they will be competing for space and time with a whole host of other Bills coming before Parliament. I start with those four Bills. The first of those is the Crime and Security Bill. We have not heard anything about it in this House, so I presume that that Bill will start in the Commons. My noble friend Lady Neville-Jones has already spoken about that so I will not go on in any detail, but I have one question for the noble Lord. What number of Home Office Bills have we had since 1997? Could he add to that not only Home Office Bills, but Bills that have emanated from the Ministry of Justice, and the number of Bills that dealt with criminal justice, crime, penal matters, custodial matters and a whole host of things that those of us who are concerned about these matters take an interest in? I see that the noble Lord is taking some advice from the noble Lord, Lord Bach, on that matter. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, and I do not really agree about the number of Bills that have been before us, but I put it to the noble Lord that it is a very large number of Bills. As I made clear earlier, a lot of them have been amending other Bills and many have not been discussed properly in the Commons. A lot of them have not been given the time that they need. If we are going to see the Crime and Security Bill on the statute book, and we will allow that to happen only if it has been properly considered by both Houses, it behoves the noble Lord to try to answer that question. The second Bill—I am taking them in a slightly different order from the noble Lord, Lord Bach—is the Bribery Bill, which has been covered by a large number of Peers. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, sat on the Select Committee with my noble and learned friend Lord Lyell of Markyate and looked at the Bill when it was in draft form. At this stage, I should declare an interest in that the chairman was my former pupil master, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Cullross. I hope that in due course he will take an interest in that Bill when it goes through this House. I do not need to say more about it at the moment because we know that it will come to this House in only two weeks’ time. We will have a good and busy Second Reading. The Bill is, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, said, long overdue. No doubt it will get the proper scrutiny that this House deserves to give it in the short amount of time that we have. The Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill is, again, a rather large Bill that was carried over from another place. Therefore, it was not technically in the Queen’s Speech but it will take considerable time to discuss. We should be interested to know from the noble Lord when he responds how much of that Bill he hopes to see reach the statute book and how much time it will take up alongside the other Bills coming through from the Commons, such as the Equality Bill, which is almost as thick as any Bill I have seen come before this House. As regards the Civil Service provisions of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill, the noble Lord will know that we have called for a measure of this sort for some time. If such a measure had already been passed, it could have helped prevent some of the damaging politicisation and downgrading of the Civil Service which has occurred over the past decade, and greater control could have been exerted over the armies—they are armies—of special advisers who have grown up over the past few years. I want to put a number of questions about the Bill to the noble Lord, which I hope he will be able to answer in due course. First, why do the provisions relating to the Civil Service not include quangos and other quasi-governmental bodies? We shall want to explore that when the Bill comes before us, bearing in mind that the total cost of such bodies seems to be something of the order of £43 billion a year. I should be grateful for guidance on that from the noble Lord and further guidance on what controls the Government hope to bring in for quangos. Will there be openness about appointments? We know that a great many of the appointments that have been made to quangos over the past few years have been drawn from the Benches opposite. We see noble Lords sitting on the Benches opposite move temporarily to the Cross Benches on the ground that they are no longer technically members of the party while they sit on or chair the relevant quango for a rather large salary. I should be very grateful to receive guidance from the noble Lord on that point. Will the Government explain where they are at on the Kelly proposals? No mention was made of Kelly in the Queen’s Speech or in the Bill. However, it has since been suggested that it might be possible to include his proposals in a measure and that the Bill might be a suitable vehicle for so doing. It is not clear to me how that would be included within the Long Title of the Bill, but I would very much welcome advice from the noble Lord on that matter. The parts of the Bill dealing with the House of Lords have been covered by a great many speakers during the debate. We understand that a Bill dealing with general reform is to be published—that is, the draft Bill referred to in the gracious Speech—but before we see that, what is the appropriate way to legislate when we cannot agree on what should be in this Bill and what should be in the proper Bill? Indeed, certain changes in Part 3, notably the progressive creation of an all-appointed House of Lords by stealth through not replacing the hereditary Peers when they die, are a direct breach of the undertaking given by a privy counsellor, the then Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, to the House on 30 March 1999, which was accepted by both Houses as the basis of the passage of the 1999 Act as a stage one reform. Why is there a direct breach of a commitment given by a privy counsellor, the then Lord Chancellor, for the passage of that Bill? We shall deal with other matters on that and other Bills, but I end on a much less controversial note concerning the fourth Bill coming before this House that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, mentioned: the Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill. That Bill was recommended by the Law Commission and follows the new procedure that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, will remember we followed when we dealt with perpetuities and accumulations. That was a sensible procedure, which allowed legislation of extreme complexity to be dealt with conveniently by the House. I can confirm to the noble Lord that we on this side have agreed to accept the new procedure for dealing with Bills such as the Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill. I hope that it is slightly simpler than the Perpetuities and Accumulations Bill. I repeat my question to the noble Lord about the number of Bills and which the Government will give priority to. We know that they are wasting a great deal of legislative time on Bills such as the Fiscal Responsibility Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, explained so well, supported by my noble friend Lord Lawson. We know that the Government want to waste time on Bills that are meaningless, pointless and serve no purpose whatever, but which Bills do they think are important and want the House to devote its expertise to, to ensure that they receive proper scrutiny? I look forward to the noble Lord’s reply on that.