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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 27 June 2005, in the House of Lords.

Road Safety Bill [HL]

Road Safety Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1-9 agreed to (Clause 7 as amended). Schedules 1-3 agreed to (schedules 2 and 3 as amended). New clauses considered. (Part 2 of 3)

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
673 c32-79 
Session
2005-06
Department
Department for Transport
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP 05/953
Friday, 1 July 2005
Deposited papers
House of Lords
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c35-6 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the debate that we have just had because my noble friend’s amendment has   given rise to a...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c34 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment in principle but, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, it is a question o...
Show all contributions (118)
Lord Berkeley | 673 c34-5 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment standing in the name of my noble friend Lady Thornton. It is moving towards ...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 673 c33 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly to support the amendment. As my noble friend said, and as my noble friend Viscount Si...
Baroness Thornton | 673 c32-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2:"Page 1, line 9, at end insert ““, with particular regard to schemes aimed to ...
Earl of Erroll | 673 c52-3 (Link to this contribution) I gathered from what the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, said that some of those fixed penalties coul...
Earl Attlee | 673 c53 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl raises an important point, but I can give him a little reassurance. Only defects rela...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c53 (Link to this contribution) That was an interesting and rather wide-ranging debate, and I have a number of interesting and speci...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c53 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I was not asking about funding; I was wondering whethe...
Earl Attlee | 673 c52 (Link to this contribution) I support the concerns of my noble friend on the Front Bench. Often vehicle condition is a matter of...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c52 (Link to this contribution) I have one question. I say immediately that as a magistrate I deal regularly with parking and vehicl...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c53-4 (Link to this contribution) It is, in the sense that being able to enforce fixed penalty notices is a new range of activities. I...
Earl of Erroll | 673 c54 (Link to this contribution) I will tell noble Lords the problem. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, mentioned it. If you were not watc...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c54 (Link to this contribution) I want to pick up that point. If anyone comes to court with a danger of having 12   points on their ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c54 (Link to this contribution) If the individual is threatened with the loss of a licence, and if that is a crippling punishment as...
Earl of Erroll | 673 c49 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is excellent in   principle. However, I suspect that the table itself should not be in...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c49-50 (Link to this contribution) I took careful note of the assenting voices after the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, and he ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c49 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has just made the speech that I wanted to make.
Earl of Dundee | 673 c49 (Link to this contribution) As my noble friend suggests, no doubt it would be helpful to have the table of speeding penalties, a...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c50-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. As I have said two or three times, this is a probing amendment ...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c51-2 (Link to this contribution) In opposing the Question that Clause 4 stand part of the Bill, I seek further information from the G...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c50 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may probe the Minister a little more. I was trying to discover what offence resulted in si...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c50 (Link to this contribution) The amendments that we are discussing concern speeding. We shall discuss speeding when we reach the ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c79 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving this Motion, I suggest that the Committee stag...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c78-9 (Link to this contribution) I have had an answer to at least some of my questions, particularly the one relating to vehicles of ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c78 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it is the role of officers to act viciously; they should act effectively. A vehicle i...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c77 (Link to this contribution) Once again, if one listens long enough one gets the answers to all the questions. I am grateful to t...
Earl Attlee | 673 c78 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Committee will be very happy with the Minister’s response. But is not the reality t...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c78 (Link to this contribution) That is certainly so, but there is a plethora of reasons I could advance against the amendments. I w...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c78 (Link to this contribution) I hope the noble Lord may be able to inform the Committee that any outstanding fines attributable to...
Lord Monson | 673 c76-7 (Link to this contribution) I rise on this occasion to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. The p...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c76 (Link to this contribution) The problem of drivers who do not hold a British driving licence is serious, be they truck or car dr...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c77 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may detain the Minister a moment with one tip from the Kent police. The police should turn...
Earl Attlee | 673 c76 (Link to this contribution) I share many of the concerns of my noble friend Lady Hanham, in particular with regard to taking cas...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, if the person who was not wearing a seat   belt was a ...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c74 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 29:"Page 72, line 13, at end insert—" ““35A   (1)   Section 30 (modification o...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c73 (Link to this contribution) As regards the point about who will be penalised with penalty points, I do not think that any of us ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c73 (Link to this contribution) The answer to my noble friend’s question is that it must be the driver, but he needs to have a reaso...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 33:"Page 9, line 16, at end insert—" ““(   )   that the person committing the ...
Lord Monson | 673 c73 (Link to this contribution) When I referred to black cab drivers, I was talking about the drivers themselves, who I contend show...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) I am a little confused and somewhat disappointed by the reply that I have received. The education of...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c72 (Link to this contribution) From this Dispatch Box, I speak for Her Majesty’s Government.
Earl Attlee | 673 c72 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s reasonably positive reply. She spoke about penalties, but I am not ...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c68-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not have the Road Traffic Act 1988 before me therefore I am not clear how either amendment woul...
Earl Attlee | 673 c69 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord   Bradshaw, for introducing the amendment. I am not happy with...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) There will be an interesting debate about whether this amendment or the amendments of the noble Earl...
Lord Monson | 673 c70 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, sits down, can he tell the Committee what a driver is meant to...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that the driver stops and waits for the teenager to put his belt on again. If the police c...
Earl Attlee | 673 c71 (Link to this contribution) The carefully thought-out answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Monson, of course, is that ...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c71-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes. But then you have the problem of a teenager without any money in his pockets looking at how he ...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c65-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 28:"After Clause 9, insert the following new clause—"    ““ENDORSABLE OFFENCES...
Lord Monson | 673 c68 (Link to this contribution) Many noble Lords will not be surprised to learn that I oppose the amendment. I shall not challenge t...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c67-8 (Link to this contribution) I have listened very carefully and found the noble Lord’s remarks very interesting. There is slight ...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27:"Page 58, line 26, at end insert—" ““4A   (1)   Section 30 (modification of...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c64 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 26: "Page 5, line 13, leave out from beginning to ““House”” in line   15 and in...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c64 (Link to this contribution) I think we have had an extraordinary debate on the issue. The Minister has surprised us by effective...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c64 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps on that specific point I may come back to the noble Earl.
Earl Attlee | 673 c64 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that I will have to have my Institute of Advanced Motorists put on my driving...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c63-4 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, it will be your driving record. Therefore it will be the record of both good and...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c63 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked about social work organisations needing access to establish that...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c63 (Link to this contribution) I agree with that. This is access to a person’s driving record for an employer who wishes to   take ...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c63 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl makes a very good point. I am sure that we shall look carefully at the concerns expre...
Earl Attlee | 673 c63 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure about the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, but my concern was that surely certain commercial...
Earl Attlee | 673 c63 (Link to this contribution) What about the petroleum company tanker carrying petrol or a chemical company, maybe a tanker carryi...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c62 (Link to this contribution) That is a point well made. I have tried to do so as an ordinary member of the public. It is often ex...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c62 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister ever tried to ring the DVLA as a private person, not as an official? If this is goi...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c62-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not have that information to   hand, but if it is available—I doubt that it is—my noble friend ...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c62 (Link to this contribution) Will the DVLA call centre be in the UK, or will it be offshore?
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c61 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly concerned about a different aspect. I understood the Minister to say that the counterp...
Earl Attlee | 673 c61 (Link to this contribution) Members of the Committee should avoid repeating each other’s speeches; otherwise, I would say exactl...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c62 (Link to this contribution) I shall start with the question asked by the noble Baroness. We envisage that, in place of the count...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c61-2 (Link to this contribution) I wish to raise two other matters. Does the system apply only to the driver, or is there a record of...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c61 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain why the military should have access to information about points on people’...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not talking about an ID card, although I am mindful of the discussions that are taking plac...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c60 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister describing another ID card?
Earl Attlee | 673 c58-9 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has misunderstood the requirement for a transport manager. The amendment does not requi...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c58 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl should not be too dismissive of that last point. It means that a single operator must...
Earl Attlee | 673 c58 (Link to this contribution) I am not surprised by the Minister’s response, because I tabled a similar amendment to the Transport...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c57-8 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the noble Earl because, particularly in the scaffolding business, the thin...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) I was listening to the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, and it was as if he was repeating the same que...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c59 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister can explain whether such a driving record is new. As a driver, will I be se...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c59 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 24:"Page 5, leave out lines 9 and 10." The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 24 ...
Lord Tordoff | 673 c59 (Link to this contribution) Before I call the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, to move Amendment No. 24, I gather that Amendments ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c56-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 23:"After Clause 5, insert the following new clause—"    ““GOODS VEHICLE LICEN...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c56 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister said, it has been an interesting debate with all sorts of views from all over the pl...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c57 (Link to this contribution) This would be a radical change to existing arrangements. The UK is the only country in the EU that h...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c54 (Link to this contribution) The question that I asked was about consistency. Obviously police are trained, and one has faith in ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c55 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl. As I say, if one sits quietly enough, one gets the answers. I was ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c54-5 (Link to this contribution) I offer some reassurance to my noble friend on the Front Bench. The VOSA examiners are technicians—t...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c55-6 (Link to this contribution) I may have to write to the noble Earl. It is obvious enough that you have no defence to any police o...
Earl Attlee | 673 c55 (Link to this contribution) I have a slight anxiety; if the Minister would prefer to write to me, I would I understand. Goods ve...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c56 (Link to this contribution) On that additional point, I shall have to write to the noble Earl.
Earl Attlee | 673 c56 (Link to this contribution) I accept the noble Lord’s argument, but the anxiety is that the person taking the vehicle to a goods...
Viscount Simon | 673 c38 (Link to this contribution) I have been out on traffic patrol with the police on numerous occasions specifically to inspect larg...
Lord Bridges | 673 c38-9 (Link to this contribution) I wish to approach the question from a different angle: the problem of securing road safety in rural...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c37-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, referred to the amendments made by the Police Reform Act 2002. In North...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c38 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. The net result of what the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, outlined, is that there...
Baroness Thornton | 673 c36 (Link to this contribution) I start by thanking noble Lords for their support and for their informed remarks in support of the a...
Earl Attlee | 673 c36-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6:"After Clause 1, insert the following new clause—"    ““NATIONAL ROAD SAFETY...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c41-2 (Link to this contribution) As I indicated, I was a little less happy with this amendment on what I hope will be recognised by t...
Earl Attlee | 673 c40-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9:"After Clause 1, insert the following new clause—"    ““ACCREDITATION FOR PU...
Earl Attlee | 673 c40 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the contributions of all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, particular...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c39-40 (Link to this contribution) The problem is that almost anything can be taken into account in the context of inspection. I accept...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c44-5 (Link to this contribution) I declare my interest as a member of the Thames Valley Police Authority. In answer to the noble Baro...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c45 (Link to this contribution) I feel that I must come back because I am being accused of saying things that should not be aired. F...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c45-6 (Link to this contribution) I support what the noble Lord, Lord   Bradshaw, said about speed limits. However, the noble Baroness...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) One of the joys of being a Minister is that if one sits at the Dispatch Box minding one’s own busine...
Earl Attlee | 673 c42 (Link to this contribution) I never have bad ideas; I have interesting ones. Can the Minister first explain why, since the Polic...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c42-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 10:"Page 2, line 7, at end insert—" ““(   )   the time of day it was committed...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c43-4 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendments, although I feel that they do not go far enough. The question of d...
Lord Tordoff | 673 c48 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 15, I should inform the Committee that, were it to be carried, I should...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c47-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his answer. As I said at the beginning, these are probing amendments. We ...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15:"Page 2, line 28, leave out from ““as”” to end of line 41 and insert ““set ou...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c33-4 (Link to this contribution) I think that I support the amendment. In fact, the best ways to reduce child casualties are through ...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 30 to 32:"Page 74, line 24, after ““licence)”””” insert ““and for ““his”” subs...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c52 (Link to this contribution) I follow the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, in using this clause stand part debate to probe the Gove...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 673 c77 (Link to this contribution) I agree totally with every word of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. We are caught for committing misde...
Subjects
Children Disadvantaged Accidents Inspections Fixed penalties Large goods vehicles Motor vehicles Police Pedestrians Safety Roads Speed limits Road traffic offences Safety belts Vehicle and Operator Services Agency Driving licences
Legislation
Road Safety Bill (HL) 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk