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Debate on bill on Thursday, 10 November 2005, in the House of Commons, led by Charles Clarke. The answering member was Dominic Grieve.

Terrorism Bill

Terrorism Bill. Third reading debate. Agreed to on question. Passed

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
439 c492-553 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Third reading
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Terrorism Bill. As amended on Report
Wednesday, 9 November 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Charles Clarke | 439 c495 (Link to this contribution) Sometimes failure to understand is the hon. Gentleman’s characteristic. As I sought to explain in th...
Charles Clarke | 439 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) I am certain that my hon. Friend is accurately reflecting the views of his constituents who have bee...
Show all contributions (151)
Dominic Grieve | 439 c497 (Link to this contribution) If that is the course that the Government intend to adopt, we will help and co-operate with the Gove...
Charles Clarke | 439 c496 (Link to this contribution) I accept your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and will operate accordingly.
Chris Bryant | 439 c496 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend was talking about the sunset clause. If in a year’s time we choose not to renew...
Speaker | 439 c496 (Link to this contribution) I have heard no unparliamentary language in this debate. What I have said, and will say again, is th...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 439 c495 (Link to this contribution) I realise that the Home Secretary had no opportunity of warning the hon. and learned Member for Medw...
Speaker | 439 c495 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps enough has been said from either side of the House on the subject of personality. Per...
Charles Clarke | 439 c497 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
Charles Clarke | 439 c494 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that comment. It is the case that all recent tests of opinion, as well as the feed...
Michael Connarty | 439 c494 (Link to this contribution) I know that passions ran high, and I voted with the Government. However, does my right hon. Friend r...
Charles Clarke | 439 c494 (Link to this contribution) You will need to advise me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as to whether or not the phrase ““ne’er-do-well”” is...
Speaker | 439 c494 (Link to this contribution) Order. I wonder whether I can help the right hon. Gentleman? Expressions used outside the House do n...
Charles Clarke | 439 c493 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman reheats yesterday’s discussion. I reject entirely the idea that o...
David Winnick | 439 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome that. The most important consideration is that the House has an opportunity to debate ever...
Charles Clarke | 439 c494 (Link to this contribution) To be frank, I accept what my hon. Friend says in his personal case. That is true. He has a long and...
Paddy Tipping | 439 c494 (Link to this contribution) Does the Home Secretary accept that people in Nottinghamshire know about the threat and accept that ...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c495 (Link to this contribution) May I take the Home Secretary back to another point, away from such contentious issues? He said that...
Lynne Jones | 439 c499 (Link to this contribution) On post-charge questioning, my understanding, which arises from a briefing from one of the lawyers m...
Charles Clarke | 439 c499 (Link to this contribution) The purpose is to gather evidence, rather than to change that aspect of the situation, but my hon. F...
Mary Creagh | 439 c499 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend aware of paragraph 60 of Lord Carlile’s report, where he refers to the curre...
Charles Clarke | 439 c500 (Link to this contribution) All the numbers that the hon. Gentleman mentioned are small numbers. I can tell him some large numbe...
John Bercow | 439 c500 (Link to this contribution) That only broadens the category, instead of narrowing it.
Charles Clarke | 439 c499 (Link to this contribution) I am not a lawyer, but one thing I have learned in this job is not necessarily to accept the advice ...
Peter Bone | 439 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) During the long debates that we have had, the Home Secretary referred a number of times to a small n...
Charles Clarke | 439 c500 (Link to this contribution) No, I did not, but again, I am delighted that the readership of The Guardian now encompasses large n...
Charles Clarke | 439 c500 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. We are talking about a small number, but by definition we cannot be precise about it because...
Peter Bottomley | 439 c500 (Link to this contribution) I am sure Gareth Peirce’s shoulders are broad enough to take any praise or other comments that the H...
Charles Clarke | 439 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) I have already dealt with the hon. Gentleman’s second point. On his first point, I am grateful for h...
David Heath | 439 c497 (Link to this contribution) I welcome what the Home Secretary has just said. As he correctly says, there was disquiet in all par...
Clive Betts | 439 c498 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for the way in which he has tried to listen to many different and confl...
Charles Clarke | 439 c498 (Link to this contribution) I have given that assurance and I am happy to repeat it. It is obviously important that such reports...
David Kidney | 439 c498 (Link to this contribution) To return to my right hon. Friend’s exchange with the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath)...
Charles Clarke | 439 c498 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, with his experience, puts his finger precisely on the issue that we are considering....
John Bercow | 439 c498 (Link to this contribution) As one who jousted with the Minister for Policing, Security and Community Safety on the definition o...
Charles Clarke | 439 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s personal commitment. One of the exciting revelations for me throug...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c499 (Link to this contribution) May I take the Home Secretary back to post-charge questioning? I appreciate that there may be some d...
Charles Clarke | 439 c499 (Link to this contribution) I am overwhelmingly delighted that those on the Opposition Front Bench are listening to the advice o...
David Howarth | 439 c493 (Link to this contribution) Will the Home Secretary clear something up? In our discussions yesterday on this very issue, I asked...
Charles Clarke | 439 c492-3 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. It is only a little over two weeks since t...
Robert Smith | 439 c512 (Link to this contribution) Is that not a classic example of where the Home Secretary was wrong to say that we had enough time t...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c510-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Sunderland, South. [Hon. Members: ““North.””] I am so...
Bill Etherington | 439 c509-10 (Link to this contribution) It is always a great pleasure to accept a correction from such a talented politician. I entirely agr...
John Bercow | 439 c509 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that he did not think a case had been made so far for any exten...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is not doing herself much credit, certainly on the final point. First, as far as an in...
Bill Etherington | 439 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak today, because unfortunately I was not able to be pre...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c507 (Link to this contribution) It is quite right that I said that 28 days was at the outer limit of what I considered to be accepta...
Mary Creagh | 439 c507 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that Lord Carlile’s report was on something else, but I was referring to his...
Charles Clarke | 439 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) On the conduct of the hon. Gentleman, he should acknowledge to the House that he decided and said cl...
Charles Clarke | 439 c503-4 (Link to this contribution) The political editor of The Times wrote this morning that, had I come forward with a proposal for a ...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c502-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. One of the curiosities of the Bill is that, in almost all cases, it is at l...
Julian Lewis | 439 c502 (Link to this contribution) I beg my hon. Friend’s pardon for not being a regular attender at earlier stages of the proceedings....
Dominic Grieve | 439 c501-2 (Link to this contribution) The Bill as it now stands merits the continuing support of the official Opposition and will have it....
Mary Creagh | 439 c504-5 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that Lord Carlile’s report states that"““there have bee...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c504 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary will recall that, when we met, I picked my words with great care. I said that I t...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c500 (Link to this contribution) I should be grateful if the Home Secretary would make a statement. There will be occasions when dete...
Charles Clarke | 439 c500-1 (Link to this contribution) I have nothing to add today to what I have said on the matter throughout. That is the situation. No...
Chris Mullin | 439 c500 (Link to this contribution) There is a serious issue here. Will the Home Secretary look at the interviewing conditions at Paddin...
Charles Clarke | 439 c500 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has a good point. There are many serious issues relating to the procedures and proces...
Peter Bottomley | 439 c506 (Link to this contribution) My total was two sensible responses from readers of The Sun, and two that even The Sun would regard ...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c505-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I did note that. I thought that the tone and content of those two articles were astonishing, on...
John Bercow | 439 c506 (Link to this contribution) I think that it was the late Enoch Powell who said that politicians complaining about the media were...
David Heath | 439 c505 (Link to this contribution) He was referring to a process of judicial investigation—read the report.
Dominic Grieve | 439 c505 (Link to this contribution) The sedentary intervention by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) is correct. Lord Ca...
Lord Cormack | 439 c505 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a very good case, and he is doing so very moderately. Does he agree that th...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c505 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. There is a problem here, and the Bill has suffered as a result...
Hazel Blears | 439 c551-3 (Link to this contribution) I am reluctant to give way. The hon. Gentleman spoke for half an hour at the beginning of the debate...
Mary Creagh | 439 c544 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, because three more hon. Members want to speak and the debate has a time scale. ...
David Kidney | 439 c546 (Link to this contribution) The House has arrived at a settled position, so it is now our responsibility to make the Bill work. ...
Stewart Hosie | 439 c544-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) was right when he said that we should be united in ...
John Bercow | 439 c546-8 (Link to this contribution) The Government say that the main provisions of the Bill are necessary. As William Pitt said as long ...
Patrick Mercer | 439 c548-50 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (John Bercow). I was particularl...
Hazel Blears | 439 c550 (Link to this contribution) This has been a good debate and I am grateful to all hon. Members who have taken part. Although our ...
Hazel Blears | 439 c550-1 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps he has, eventually, after a great deal of discussion. I understand that the hon. Gentleman ...
Hazel Blears | 439 c551 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman wants to intervene but I have only a few minutes and I want to deal w...
Baroness Featherstone | 439 c538 (Link to this contribution) No, I have reached my conclusion. We all act according to what we believe is in the best interests ...
Mary Creagh | 439 c543-4 (Link to this contribution) We shall have to wait to see what comes back from the other place. I am disappointed that such a pro...
Mary Creagh | 439 c542-3 (Link to this contribution) I must start by returning, in the nicest possible way, the gold cup for loyalty that the hon. Member...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c543 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to the hon. Lady’s point about academics. Does she agree that it must be possib...
David Anderson | 439 c539-40 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to all sides of the argument. I took umbrage about the lack of respect shown to Gare...
Peter Robinson | 439 c540-2 (Link to this contribution) This has been a challenging Bill for all of us in the House. Those of us who have sat through all it...
David Anderson | 439 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) May I first thank the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael)? As a lifelong fan of Sun...
John Hemming | 439 c539 (Link to this contribution) : The argument used for detention pre-charge is that questioning cannot occur after charge. What is ...
Andrew Miller | 439 c536 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the hon. Lady has read out her letter from people in her constituency in good faith, b...
Baroness Featherstone | 439 c538 (Link to this contribution) Therein lies the question of the training resource. The experience in the House this week has been ...
Baroness Featherstone | 439 c537 (Link to this contribution) In his letter of explanation, Andy Hayman referred to the ricin incident that took place in my const...
Speaker | 439 c537 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I ask the hon. Lady to relate her remarks to Third Reading of the Bill?
Baroness Featherstone | 439 c537-8 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker; I was about to bring my remarks back into context. One arrestee, w...
Andrew Miller | 439 c538 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is right about encryption, but she has missed the point—as a number of Members have th...
Baroness Featherstone | 439 c536 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to elucidate about the particular inaccuracy to which he is re...
Andrew Miller | 439 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady referred to people not having rights in respect of getting information to and from the...
Baroness Featherstone | 439 c537 (Link to this contribution) Given Members’ remarks from sedentary positions, it seems that that is not the case in law. [Interru...
Speaker | 439 c537 (Link to this contribution) Order. May we have this debate conducted along proper parliamentary lines?
Stewart Hosie | 439 c534 (Link to this contribution) Did the hon. Gentleman speak directly to the chief constable of Tayside? If so, did the chief consta...
Gordon Banks | 439 c534 (Link to this contribution) I have listened intently to a large amount of the debate on the Bill over the past few days and week...
Speaker | 439 c534 (Link to this contribution) Order. Several Members are hoping to catch my eye. May I make a plea that if contributions were brie...
John Hemming | 439 c535 (Link to this contribution) If evidence is put before a High Court judge and is sufficient to warrant someone’s detention, why i...
Gordon Banks | 439 c534-5 (Link to this contribution) The police were happy with the proposal. They are the experts, and I will be guided by them. I belie...
Nick Hurd | 439 c534 (Link to this contribution) What was the one compelling argument that emerged from those discussions?
Gordon Banks | 439 c534 (Link to this contribution) I did not speak to him directly, but I spoke to one of his staff officers, and was told that his pos...
Baroness Featherstone | 439 c535-6 (Link to this contribution) It is hard to stand up against the tide of opinion in this country when it is ranged against us. It ...
Gordon Banks | 439 c535 (Link to this contribution) We have had that discussion several times today and in earlier debates, and enough convincing argume...
Stewart Hosie | 439 c528 (Link to this contribution) Surely there is a fourth category: those who believed that the doubling of pre-charge detention from...
Lord Cormack | 439 c529-30 (Link to this contribution) I think that the last remarks of the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Khabra) were unworthy of ...
Piara S Khabra | 439 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) I am coming to that and will tell the hon. Gentleman why the Government had a good reason for introd...
Lord Cormack | 439 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I shall carry on, if I may. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Bill Etherington), who made ...
Lord Cormack | 439 c531-2 (Link to this contribution) There are some fundamental misunderstandings in the hon. Gentleman’s question. First, the country ha...
Piara S Khabra | 439 c531 (Link to this contribution) When the Conservative party is in government, it is prepared to listen to police advice but when it ...
Lord Cormack | 439 c532-3 (Link to this contribution) I am almost tempted to quote Richter, the conductor, when he said to the third flute:"““Your damned ...
John Bercow | 439 c532 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; I certainly would not want to disappoint him by fail...
Speaker | 439 c533 (Link to this contribution) Order. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman could now bring us forward in time to the Bill currently ...
John Bercow | 439 c522 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend has just explained that one weakness of the Bill is that most of it...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 439 c520-2 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to begin my Third Reading speech by underlining the fact that I take very seriously the t...
John Bercow | 439 c517 (Link to this contribution) : I respect the hon. Gentleman’s principled opposition to the war in Iraq, but it is important in th...
Michael Connarty | 439 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) I rise to welcome the Bill, as amended. I did not vote for those amendments; I voted for the 90-day ...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c515-6 (Link to this contribution) That is yet another of the defects in our procedures with which we have to contend. It is an unsatis...
Piara S Khabra | 439 c527-8 (Link to this contribution) We have heard a lot of argument, discussion and debate in the House. There has been a lot of intelle...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 439 c524-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with some of those points. First, the mobile phone has proved a great aid to investigat...
Mary Creagh | 439 c524 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that, when we were dealing with the threat of IRA te...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 439 c522-4 (Link to this contribution) Hon. Members on both sides have been resisting for many years the simplistic argument that the crimi...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c515 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that we have finally got to the kernel of the issue. There is no question of bail being gi...
David Kidney | 439 c514-5 (Link to this contribution) Surely the point is a very obvious one. We are talking about a few cases of suspected terrorism. If ...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c515 (Link to this contribution) We are now on safe territory that I understand. Exactly the same test is applied in Scotland, and I ...
David Howarth | 439 c515 (Link to this contribution) : The test for remanding in custody instead of granting bail, taking the prosecution’s case at its h...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c514 (Link to this contribution) That question relates to cases where a charge other than a terrorist is charge is brought in the fir...
David Heath | 439 c515 (Link to this contribution) : I am still puzzled by the question of the implementation of section 57 of the 2000 Act. The Under-...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c515 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman can make his point later in the debate. I promise that if he says anything that i...
David Kidney | 439 c515 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way one last time?
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c515 (Link to this contribution) I have been quite generous to the hon. Gentleman, so I will not give way again. There are a number ...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c513 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s point speaks for itself and I agree absolutely. As someone who used to earn his...
David Kidney | 439 c514 (Link to this contribution) : Given what the hon. Gentleman has just said about the Liberal Democrat proposal on questioning aft...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c514 (Link to this contribution) No, and I do not see why the hon. Gentleman could even think that.
David Kidney | 439 c514 (Link to this contribution) I pursue this point because of what the hon. Gentleman said about the idea that the longer a person ...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c514 (Link to this contribution) No. On the question of lesser charges, I hope that the hon. Gentleman has simply misunderstood and i...
David Kidney | 439 c514 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman mean that a person could not apply for bail because the police would need to...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) Proceedings on this Bill have demonstrated that, if given the opportunity, this House can be trusted...
John Bercow | 439 c513 (Link to this contribution) I strongly agree with hon. Gentleman about the need for some check or constraint on the operation of...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c513 (Link to this contribution) That is a truth that we can understand and accept without any difficulty on both sides of the House....
Julian Lewis | 439 c513 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. Gentleman returns to the remainder of his list, will he also comment on what the sha...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c506 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to see the evidence in order to make a judgment. We also...
Dominic Grieve | 439 c506 (Link to this contribution) I think that my hon. Friends may well be right. I detected a stiffening of resolve in the face of th...
Lynne Jones | 439 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It was not only my hon. and learned Friend the Member for M...
Chris Mullin | 439 c505 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned The Sun newspaper a moment ago. Did he notice that the victim of the Ju...
Charles Clarke | 439 c495 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I certainly shall not bring any other such word...
Lord Cormack | 439 c533-4 (Link to this contribution) A little reminiscence illustrates, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a very important point. I am not a...
Michael Connarty | 439 c517-20 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, I respect him greatly. He wanted to put that on the record and I am gla...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Criminal investigation Detainees Arrests Chemical weapons Custodial treatment Evidence Intelligence services Incitement National security Police Powers Prosecutions Nuclear weapons Police custody Publications Police interrogation Terrorism Training Timetables Remand in custody Encouragement of terrorism Sunset clauses
Legislation
Terrorism Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk