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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 6 February 2007, in the House of Lords.

Legal Services Bill [HL]

Legal Services Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage fourth day. Clauses 71 to 109 agreed to. Schedules 11 to 14 agreed to. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
689 c616-66 
Session
2006-07
Department
Department for Constitutional Affairs
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 689 c663 (Link to this contribution) I am concerned whether, if we start a scheme such as alternative business structures, it will be rea...
Lord Borrie | 689 c662 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord’s case has been much enhanced by the amendment’s heading, ““Monitoring and research””...
Show all contributions (111)
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c661-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes an important point, and one that I have discussed with those who drafted the am...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 689 c661 (Link to this contribution) Why can it not stop there? It is always possible, if the situation demands it, for the Opposition of...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c659 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on the proposal. I am gratified by the ra...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c659-61 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108J: 108J: After Clause 107, insert the following new Clause— ““Monitoring an...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c659 (Link to this contribution) The Minister talked about investors. We had some discussion about who will want to put their money i...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c659 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is absolutely right; that is another reason why we do not think that a pilot scheme w...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 689 c657 (Link to this contribution) When listening to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, I had in mind the words festina lente, and he then...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c657-8 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. I shall not stray into the territory of the next amendment, tempting though it i...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 689 c656-7 (Link to this contribution) I understand fullywhat the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, has in mind and the difficulties th...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c655-6 (Link to this contribution) We are extremely sympathetic to the concerns that the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, expresse...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c655 (Link to this contribution) With respect, I did not refuse to endorse it; I merely suggested that others might be in a better po...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c656 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. That is precisely, as I understand it, th...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 689 c656 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be possible to invigilate what is happening in any event, without endorsing this partic...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 689 c654 (Link to this contribution) For how long does the noble Lord envisage a pilot scheme operating?
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c654 (Link to this contribution) That is a matter for consideration. I have not attempted to prescribe how long it would be. It shoul...
Lord Borrie | 689 c655 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, has reasonably and legitimately voiced a number of concern...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c653-4 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 108H: 108H: After Clause 107, insert the following new Clause— ““Miscellaneous ...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 689 c666 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving the Motion, I suggest that the Committee begin...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c665-6 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to agree. I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate, particularly the m...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 689 c663 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest in apple pie and motherhood, and in monitoring and research, which are obvious...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 689 c663 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with noble Lords who have argued against the idea of a sunset clause. My experience...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 689 c663-4 (Link to this contribution) I understand very well the reason for monitoring and research. Like the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, I w...
Lord Sentamu | 689 c664 (Link to this contribution) I am a new boy here. Is the problem with this clause really subsection (4)? Without that, subsection...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c664 (Link to this contribution) The most reverend Primate may be a new boy, but he is spot on in his analysis of the Government’s po...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) I am reminded by the Chairman that that would be within reason, and of course we are always reasonab...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c639 (Link to this contribution) I understand exactly what the noble Lord seeks to achieve in his amendment. However, I am advised th...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c639 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness but this amendment is not about prioritisation. It is simpl...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c640-1 (Link to this contribution) I should be more than happy to do that. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has tabled amendments on iss...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c641 (Link to this contribution) It is plain that the noble Baroness is not going to accept the amendment today. She said that she wa...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c641 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108D: 108D: Clause 81 , page 47, line 25, at end insert— ““( ) a provision req...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c641-2 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could say something about the amendment. As my noble friend rightly says, Part 5 applies o...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c639-40 (Link to this contribution) If I may respectfully submit, it is not just what I am seeking to achieve, it is what the amendment ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 689 c640 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the noble Lord shares my growing suspicion that one of the reasons for the objectio...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c640 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, we would have to think about how to do it and discuss this point with those who are consi...
Duke of Montrose | 689 c640 (Link to this contribution) On the previous Committee day I asked how the Government would assess the impact on rural and dispar...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 689 c636 (Link to this contribution) On the question of how best to achieve it, would the Minister consider the problem that there is no ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c638 (Link to this contribution) I agree completely with the noble Lord about the need to be clear about the different kinds of consu...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c638-9 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. I would only suggest that if, in the tranquil days that she will...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c638 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to all Members of the Committee who have intervened in the debate and to the Mini...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c636 (Link to this contribution) The minute I seethe noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, I always think: Scotland. Then I check whe...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c637 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has expressed complete understanding of what lies behind the amendment and, on earlier ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c636 (Link to this contribution) I will look at that. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, is right; it is important that the bo...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 689 c636 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister say whether the body might have a branch in an area other than England and Wales? ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c649-50 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord continues to keep me on my toes: I thought that these two amendments appeared separat...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c648-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108DAA: 108DAA: Schedule 11, page 173, line 8, at end insert— ““( ) Licensing ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c650 (Link to this contribution) In saying how strongly I support these amendments and all that my noble friend has already said, I r...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c650 (Link to this contribution) I hope Hansard will put those words in block capitals. However, there is a doubt. As the noble Baron...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c650 (Link to this contribution) I am always happy to look. As I have indicated, at the end of Committee stage, I shall be checking t...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c651 (Link to this contribution) I was extremely happy to hear that the noble Baroness entirely accepts the logic behind both amendme...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c651 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108DB: 108DB: Clause 88, page 50, line 9, leave out ““an employee or”” and ins...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c651-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I shall reiterate the duties in Part 5 designed to protect lawyers’...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c653 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her response, and can see that Clause 88 is, in practice, intended...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c642 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is very generous; I thought he was just keeping me on my toes. I can respond to all t...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c642 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I was operating from a list that emerged last night, and I am afraid that I have muddle...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c642 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has referred to three different groups of amendments—
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c645 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for what she said on all these amendments and I am particularly g...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c645 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108DA: 108DA: Clause 81 , page 47, line 36, at end insert— ““( ) section (Low ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c642 (Link to this contribution) I believe my noble friend has said all that needs to be said, so I await the Minister’s response on ...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c647-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I found her response extremely well argued but quite uncon...
Lord De Mauley | 689 c646 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Kingsland in moving the amendment and I declare an interest as a fell...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c646-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to both noble Lords who have spoken. Perhaps I may begin by talking about the role of ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 689 c632-3 (Link to this contribution) An average member of the public listening to this discussion might feel that it is about protecting ...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 689 c632 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may, having served as a Member of Parliament for a rural area for a number of years, add m...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 689 c634 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, her first argument was directed at the idea that it would be wrong to...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c633-4 (Link to this contribution) The odd thing about this debate is that I agree with much of what has been said, and I do not want t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c635 (Link to this contribution) In reply to the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I was not trying to...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c635 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure what a slightly different form of access to justice would be.
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 689 c635 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister might consider between now and Third Reading the possibility of the wo...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c635-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and I accept that ““overarching”” was the wrong word for me to use. I meant that it would b...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 689 c635 (Link to this contribution) I do not mean a different form of access to justice. I respectfully agree with the noble and learned...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 689 c628 (Link to this contribution) This Bill applies largely to England and Wales, but it is possible that a firm could have a branch i...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c627-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108C: 108C: Clause 81 , page 47, line 25, at end insert— ““( ) appropriate pro...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c628-9 (Link to this contribution) I too support the amendment. Your Lordships may recall that I was a member of the Joint Committee se...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c628 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendment. I invite the noble Baroness to explain fully—as she always do...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 689 c630 (Link to this contribution) I wholly support the amendment and, in particular, the reasons just given by the noble Lord, Lord Th...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c631 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the quotation that the noble Lord had in mind from my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf is...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c630-1 (Link to this contribution) This is such an important amendment that it is probably the most important one that we are discussin...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 689 c631-2 (Link to this contribution) I underline and endorse what the two previous noble Lords had to say about rural areas, particularly...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c627 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for agreeing to look at the matter further. Irrespective of her reaction to wha...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c622 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108AA: 108AA: Clause 81 , page 47, line 3, leave out subsection (1) The noble...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c627 (Link to this contribution) As with all amendments, I will, of course, reflect on it. We think that we have captured it within S...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c625-6 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid I am running true to form for the time being. It is not that I feel holed below the wate...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c624-5 (Link to this contribution) While we all enjoyed the spectre of the ship of state of government being holed below the water-line...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 689 c624 (Link to this contribution) I am having a little difficulty in understanding Clause 81. Perhaps I can explain my difficulties so...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 689 c624 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for having been unable to be here earlier. I have very little to say but this is an impo...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c623 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord, who makes a good point; but the Bill does set out the circumst...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 689 c623 (Link to this contribution) I am much obliged to the noble Lord for giving way. If you have to define an emergency, are you not ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c621-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his remarks about the meeting that I had yesterday with both org...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c622 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. I am disappointed that she is not prepared t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c620 (Link to this contribution) I am always happy to rise to my feet, but I did not want to interrupt the noble Lord. I do not see ...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c619-20 (Link to this contribution) I am of course most grateful to the Minister for her reply. I can only conclude from her responses t...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c620-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108A: 108A: After Clause 71 , insert the following new Clause— ““Patent and Tr...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c620 (Link to this contribution) In the light of what the noble Baroness has said, I do not think that I can take this amendment much...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c618-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, loves to entice me to do things. I try very hard, as he knows, to resist ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c617-8 (Link to this contribution) I strongly agree with my noble friend. This subject exercised the Joint Committee on the draft Legal...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c619 (Link to this contribution) It is not onerous and difficult to understand—far from it. I am grateful for the noble Lord’s commen...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 689 c619 (Link to this contribution) I am listening with great interest to the Minister. These amendments would still mean that these fir...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c616-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108ZA: 108ZA: Clause 71, page 40, line 38, at end insert— ““( ) A body is not ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c616 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton I beg to move that the ...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 689 c635 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend has, in effect, taken a part of the point—and far better than I—that I w...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c637-8 (Link to this contribution) I should be more than happy to give the assurance that I have very inventive aides who are looking a...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c642-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly try; it may sound a bit more disjointed than it would otherwise, but perhaps Membe...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c639 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not. I have already apologised for using the word ““overarching””, which was clearly not ri...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 689 c655 (Link to this contribution) I endorse the remarks of my noble friend. I wholly embrace the issues, but there ought to be a time ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 689 c629-30 (Link to this contribution) I have already made the point in previous contributions, but I would like to underline it again. In ...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c626 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for setting out her philosophy, which I find partially reassuring. The...
Subjects
Legal profession Licensing Exemptions Misconduct Pilot schemes Northern Ireland Patents Scotland Regulation Trade unions Solicitors Trade marks Legal Services Board Sunset clauses
Legislation
Legal Services Bill (HL) 2006-07
Link
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