Parliamentary Search

Adjournment debate on Thursday, 15 March 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Bill Rammell. The answering member was Boris Johnson.

Higher Education

Debate on a motion for the adjournment on higher education.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
458 c483-544 
Session
2006-07
Department
Department for Education and Skills
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Boris Johnson | 458 c500 (Link to this contribution) Of course we need students to study those subjects as well. I am merely trying to account for the pr...
Boris Johnson | 458 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) My point is a simple one. In trying to widen participation, which we all want to do, we must ensure ...
Show all contributions (193)
David Chaytor | 458 c499 (Link to this contribution) Those statistics are not under dispute. What is under dispute is the way in which the hon. Gentleman...
David Chaytor | 458 c501 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is defending the status quo. He is repeating a set of statistics with which every...
Boris Johnson | 458 c500 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman would let me finish—
Speaker | 458 c500 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Member for Bury, North (Mr. Chaytor) is in the middle of an intervention.
Boris Johnson | 458 c501 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman keeps asking me where my argument is going. If he will allow me to make some prog...
Bill Rammell | 458 c501 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Boris Johnson | 458 c501 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish my argument, he will understand. The problem is that w...
Bill Rammell | 458 c501 (Link to this contribution) I cannot resist pointing out that during an earlier discourse, the hon. Gentleman strongly agreed wi...
Boris Johnson | 458 c501 (Link to this contribution) I think the Minister knows the answer to that. Indeed, I think he was about to give it to the hon. M...
David Howarth | 458 c502 (Link to this contribution) I can give the hon. Gentleman some support—although, as a Cambridge academic, I might have to declar...
Boris Johnson | 458 c502 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for injecting some common sense from the Liberal Democrat Benche...
David Chaytor | 458 c506 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend moves on from discussing the educational guru of The Sunday Times, he will rec...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c505-6 (Link to this contribution) We should congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister for Higher Education and Lifelong Learning on his...
Boris Johnson | 458 c504-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. She is right. We support the broad thrust of ...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c503 (Link to this contribution) As ever, the hon. Gentleman is being extremely entertaining, but he has been speaking for nearly hal...
Boris Johnson | 458 c503 (Link to this contribution) It is particularly important that students have better advice on the right mixture of GCSEs necessar...
Paul Farrelly | 458 c502-3 (Link to this contribution) I want to return to the crunchy issue of Connexions. The hon. Gentleman has acknowledged the importa...
Angela Watkinson | 458 c504 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that co-operation between local FE colleges and universities will be an op...
Hywel Francis | 458 c504 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Boris Johnson | 458 c503-4 (Link to this contribution) That is very disobliging of the hon. Gentleman, who was being kind to me earlier. I have already mad...
Jeremy Wright | 458 c508 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that although there are many similarities with the American system, on...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. American universities, and especially ivy league universities...
Angela Watkinson | 458 c506 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has just repeated a comment that he made in questions to the Secretary of State f...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c506 (Link to this contribution) The guru status and influence of that particular gentleman can be exaggerated. I will have to think ...
Boris Johnson | 458 c506 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that English and mathematics are crunchy subjects. The di...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c506 (Link to this contribution) I was just trying to get the balance right. I meet many Members of Parliament who do not visit many ...
Lord Beamish | 458 c507 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that, slowly but surely, universities in this country—certainly in the nor...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c507 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point.
Barry Sheerman | 458 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I welcome the fact that that is happening in British univers...
Lord Beamish | 458 c511 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that if we had followed the never-never land approach of the Liberal Democ...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c510 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman; I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for North Du...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c510 (Link to this contribution) In a moment. The very different tradition in mainland Europe, and difference in the history of its u...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c510 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman is quibbling a bit. The fact is that a significant tranche of new mo...
David Howarth | 458 c510 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again, and I appreciate his supportive comments about rate...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c509-10 (Link to this contribution) No, it does not, because we only have one year’s figures to look at in considering the impact of fee...
David Howarth | 458 c509 (Link to this contribution) On access and fees, does the hon. Gentleman agree that the crucial measure of the system is the chan...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) When the Select Committee intervened and held a session to try to bring the two sides together in th...
David Chaytor | 458 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not find the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Johnson) remotely off-putting, but is not the key poin...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c512 (Link to this contribution) It is obvious that the shadow Minister does not understand the problem. He has been part of that sys...
Boris Johnson | 458 c513 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made a sincere speech and some good points. I was particularly interested in ...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c513 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has stolen the last part of my speech. That is precisely the argument. Many of our br...
Boris Johnson | 458 c512 (Link to this contribution) It is a tragic comment on the vacuity at the heart of the hon. Gentleman’s argument that he is oblig...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c512 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows a lot about it. I know a little bit about his Oxford set and the old Etonia...
Bill Rammell | 458 c488 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and one of the frustrations in this debate, when variable fees—
Bill Rammell | 458 c488 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the hon. Gentleman, that is right, and the upward trend in applications is moving si...
David Chaytor | 458 c488 (Link to this contribution) On that point, and to put in context the Liberal Democrats’ attempts to undermine the progress that ...
Bill Rammell | 458 c488 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately for the hon. Gentleman, he too anticipates a point that I was going to make later on. ...
Bill Rammell | 458 c488 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but then I will make progress.
David Howarth | 458 c488 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way again. When he gets to the end of his speech, will he take into ...
Bill Rammell | 458 c488 (Link to this contribution) I genuinely do not believe that there is national evidence that backs up my hon. Friend’s claim, but...
Paul Farrelly | 458 c487 (Link to this contribution) The Minister faces many challenges in Harlow in Essex. This year, there was a rise of 5 per cent. in...
Speaker | 458 c487 (Link to this contribution) Order. This is not Question Time; this is a debate, and the Minister must be given a chance to respo...
Bill Rammell | 458 c487 (Link to this contribution) If I may, I shall respond to the point that has been raised, and then I will happily take other inte...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c487 (Link to this contribution) Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was merely trying to help my hon. Friend the Minister to answer an earlier int...
Bill Rammell | 458 c487 (Link to this contribution) I wholly agree with my hon. Friend. He anticipates what is said in the paragraphs towards the end of...
Bill Rammell | 458 c486 (Link to this contribution) I am genuinely not aware of the detail on that issue, because UCAS is separate from the Government, ...
Paul Farrelly | 458 c487 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to say that a general breakdown of data has been provided, but there has bee...
Speaker | 458 c487 (Link to this contribution) Order. Not in an intervention; that would be extending it much too far.
David Chaytor | 458 c486 (Link to this contribution) On that point, does my hon. Friend know whether UCAS still levies a charge for providing the informa...
Bill Rammell | 458 c486 (Link to this contribution) I believe that I am right in saying that the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service published ...
Bill Rammell | 458 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with my hon. Friend about the evidence from overseas. This debate raged long and hard dur...
David Chaytor | 458 c494 (Link to this contribution) Before we leave the question of bursaries and fees, we must recognise that we are still talking abou...
Bill Rammell | 458 c492 (Link to this contribution) I concede that one cannot be absolutely certain. We seek to ensure in the best way possible that we ...
Paul Farrelly | 458 c493 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is right; the robust argument that we had on these Benches during the changes meant tha...
David Chaytor | 458 c491 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying categorically that a fully developed post-qualification application system wi...
Stephen Williams | 458 c492 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister draws too many firm conclusions from the socio-economic data derived from the UC...
Bill Rammell | 458 c492 (Link to this contribution) I can assure my hon. Friend that we have ongoing discussions with all institutions, including Oxford...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c491 (Link to this contribution) Five years ago the Select Committee made a strong recommendation about post-qualification access and...
Bill Rammell | 458 c491 (Link to this contribution) The Government are not responsible for the HE applications process. Nevertheless, the Department, th...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c490 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the Sutton Trust is piloting choice advisers for the Government.
Bill Rammell | 458 c490 (Link to this contribution) The Sutton Trust is doing excellent work, often in conjunction with the Government, which can contri...
Boris Johnson | 458 c490-1 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister moves on to another ““A””, it would be bizarre if he did not comment on asset sa...
Bill Rammell | 458 c491 (Link to this contribution) I have learned in politics and in government never to comment on stories about what may or may not, ...
Speaker | 458 c488 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is turning away from the microphone, and I have already been told that he ...
Bill Rammell | 458 c490 (Link to this contribution) A range of advice and assistance is available to young people locally, and I will ensure that I send...
Paul Farrelly | 458 c490 (Link to this contribution) In north Staffordshire we are slowly cracking the 16-plus argument, but they key issue is making sur...
Boris Johnson | 458 c499 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to complete my point. In 2004, an increasing divergence wa...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c499 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Boris Johnson | 458 c499 (Link to this contribution) Of course, the Opposition support anything that can be done to improve children’s performance in the...
Boris Johnson | 458 c498 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, the hon. Gentleman must have misunderstood me. It is our purpose to reform the Connexion...
David Chaytor | 458 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) Before we leave the subject of differential attainment between children of different social backgrou...
Boris Johnson | 458 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) One thing worth considering is getting rid of the Connexions service. The general problem that the h...
Paul Farrelly | 458 c498 (Link to this contribution) During the debate on top-up fees, I met the then Secretary of State to discuss the effectiveness of ...
Boris Johnson | 458 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) I almost find myself apologising to almost everybody. If it pleases the hon. Gentleman to have an ap...
Paul Farrelly | 458 c497 (Link to this contribution) As I mentioned previously, north Staffordshire has one of the lowest participation rates in the coun...
Boris Johnson | 458 c496 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I express common ground with the hon. Gentleman, to whom I shall give way, when I say th...
Boris Johnson | 458 c496 (Link to this contribution) It was perverse of the lecturers to oppose top-up fees and then go on strike for a larger share of t...
Paul Farrelly | 458 c496 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would also include a good standard of teaching. Before he gets car...
Speaker | 458 c495 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I remind the Minister about speaking into the microphone? Those taking notes may experien...
Bill Rammell | 458 c495 (Link to this contribution) My sincere apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker. The point about carers is important. One of the changes...
Boris Johnson | 458 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his kind remarks about my party’s position on some aspects of high...
Hywel Francis | 458 c495 (Link to this contribution) I recognise what my hon. Friend is saying as regards the contribution of employers, but would he ack...
Bill Rammell | 458 c541-2 (Link to this contribution) Their columns—apart from the hon. Gentleman’s— constantly attack the Government for pursuing exactly...
Bill Rammell | 458 c541 (Link to this contribution) I think that our debate has been genuinely helpful, informed and instructive. I must say that at the...
Boris Johnson | 458 c540 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Chaytor | 458 c540-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I am sorry. If we can develop a more egalitarian, less hierarchical and less elitist secondary ...
Boris Johnson | 458 c538 (Link to this contribution) Talk about a badly researched speech! I really think that the hon. Gentleman should reflect the role...
David Chaytor | 458 c538-40 (Link to this contribution) That is not a picture that I recognise. What I do recognise is the fact that the previous Government...
Boris Johnson | 458 c538 (Link to this contribution) I gave way to the hon. Gentleman.
David Chaytor | 458 c538 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s generosity in giving way earlier, and I had more than my fair sha...
Boris Johnson | 458 c542 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister tell us where he thinks the money is going, and should not be going?
Bill Rammell | 458 c542-4 (Link to this contribution) My point is that the money is there to target young people from the poorest backgrounds, which is no...
Jeremy Wright | 458 c528-31 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis), because I want to pick up on so...
Boris Johnson | 458 c527 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for not allowing him to interrupt during my speech. I...
Hywel Francis | 458 c527-8 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but what was lacking in his contribution was any class analysis. ...
Jeremy Wright | 458 c531 (Link to this contribution) I accept, as does the hon. Lady, that it is a good thing to get more people into higher education, s...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 458 c531-4 (Link to this contribution) I accept that point only insofar as we should not rest with the minimum. We must do everything that ...
Stephen Williams | 458 c522-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for correcting me. I trust that the research takes place in the courts of Cam...
Hywel Francis | 458 c524-7 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Stephen Williams). I do not necessaril...
Stephen Williams | 458 c521-2 (Link to this contribution) I think that they are. In the end, I chose history. The hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Johnson) is nodd...
David Howarth | 458 c522 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should inform my hon. Friend that research universities no longer refer to ““the long vaca...
Boris Johnson | 458 c536 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is a man who knows about this subject. Pure science subjects such as physics have exp...
Rob Wilson | 458 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) I mentioned lack of competence in some subjects, and I should like to give an example of that. Have ...
David Chaytor | 458 c537-8 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on securing the debate. First, may I say that 10 years ag...
David Chaytor | 458 c538 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I will not give way, as time is so short.
Rob Wilson | 458 c534-5 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate in this debate. We all agree that, as the hon. M...
Rob Wilson | 458 c535-6 (Link to this contribution) Well, we will see about that. The NUS also makes a significant point about the 42 per cent. of highe...
Bill Rammell | 458 c536 (Link to this contribution) With all due respect, this speech is one of the most poorly researched that I have heard—and I do no...
Rob Wilson | 458 c536 (Link to this contribution) I will not give specific numbers, but I am talking about pure science subjects, not the combined sci...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c521 (Link to this contribution) Are they crunchy enough subjects?
Stephen Williams | 458 c520 (Link to this contribution) The arrangements that a modern-day applicant has to face are so convoluted, compared with those that...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 458 c520 (Link to this contribution) If university applications continue to increase in future years, will his party then recognise that ...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 458 c519 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman distance his party from some of the remarks that were made before the last e...
Stephen Williams | 458 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I agree absolutely. I intend to say more about that later. The 2003 review of Steven Schwartz ...
Stephen Williams | 458 c520 (Link to this contribution) That was a rather convoluted economic point. All students will have had their debt increased in the ...
Stephen Williams | 458 c519 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not accept responsibility for that. In every speech that I made in the 2001 and 2005 gene...
Hywel Francis | 458 c517 (Link to this contribution) I am listening attentively to the hon. Gentleman’s argument and I agree with the thrust of it. Will ...
Stephen Williams | 458 c517 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman is patient, he will find that I shall deal with fair access to particular inst...
Rob Wilson | 458 c517 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, although the Government have made some progress with black Afri...
Stephen Williams | 458 c517 (Link to this contribution) I thank my Select Committee colleague for his intervention. It is perhaps for the Minister rather th...
Lord Beamish | 458 c517-8 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, while there is an economic dimension in respect of the relations...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c514 (Link to this contribution) All that training at Eton and Oxford never actually raises the level of the debate.
Stephen Williams | 458 c515-7 (Link to this contribution) I enjoyed the long speech by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman), and I enjoyed some of ...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c514-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to end my remarks by saying this: this country must use all the potential of all the people. ...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c514 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has brought me to the last thing that I want to say in my contribution.
Barry Sheerman | 458 c514 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. The Opposition spokesman has been infuriated by the fa...
David Howarth | 458 c514 (Link to this contribution) As one of the working-class kids who was not put off by Cambridge’s atmosphere and who went on to in...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c514 (Link to this contribution) No; the hon. Gentleman is not right.
David Chaytor | 458 c514 (Link to this contribution) The point is that the figures quoted by the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Johnson) conceal the fact th...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c514 (Link to this contribution) Most of us in the Chamber, including the hon. Gentleman, know that the figures are much more complex...
Speaker | 458 c513 (Link to this contribution) Order. Interventions are made from a standing position, and Mr. Sheerman is responding to an interve...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c513 (Link to this contribution) The louder the hon. Gentleman shouts—
Boris Johnson | 458 c513 (Link to this contribution) Will you allow me to finish? It was about 60 per cent.—
Speaker | 458 c513 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is on his feet making an intervention. Perhaps he will bring that remark t...
Boris Johnson | 458 c513 (Link to this contribution) The point is that in the 1960s and 1950s far more children from the maintained sector got access to ...
Stephen Williams | 458 c485 (Link to this contribution) How does that £100,000 premium, which is an average, compare with the figure that was cited in the l...
Bill Rammell | 458 c485 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman had done his research a bit better, he would be aware that the £400,000 figure...
David Howarth | 458 c485 (Link to this contribution) One aspect of what the Minister just said was puzzling. According to Universities UK, nearly everyon...
Bill Rammell | 458 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) That demonstrates that a little research can go an awful long way towards misleading people. It is n...
Jeremy Wright | 458 c483-4 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that we all agree that we do not want to restrict access to further and higher education. ...
Bill Rammell | 458 c484 (Link to this contribution) I agree in part with the hon. Gentleman. It is not the Government’s policy to present university as ...
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 458 c484 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Minister will join me in acknowledging the great work that the Open university in...
Bill Rammell | 458 c484 (Link to this contribution) I am certainly happy to celebrate the achievements of the Open university, which was one of the fine...
Greg Mulholland | 458 c486 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the figures with interest, and particularly to those for before 2004, but accordi...
Bill Rammell | 458 c483 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House do now adjourn. I am pleased to have this opportunity today for, I h...
David Chaytor | 458 c500 (Link to this contribution) Where is this leading us? The hon. Gentleman is—
Barry Sheerman | 458 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) That is the Woodhead argument, is it not? It is not true. That is not the percentage of children lea...
Jeremy Wright | 458 c507 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely that it would be much better if British universities did what American ivy league u...
Rob Wilson | 458 c490 (Link to this contribution) We have heard a great deal about social class, but we have yet to hear anything about what the Gover...
Bill Rammell | 458 c490 (Link to this contribution) There is significant expenditure under the provisions of the Disability Discrimination Acts to ensur...
Bill Rammell | 458 c488-90 (Link to this contribution) I am off-sound rather than off-message, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My apologies for that. My hon. Friend th...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 458 c531 (Link to this contribution) I, too, congratulate the Minister on introducing today’s debate. Like many others in the House, I sh...
Eric Joyce | 458 c519 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it is perverse to celebrate the fact that a higher number of students are leavin...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 458 c500 (Link to this contribution) I am not entirely sure where the hon. Gentleman’s argument is going. I think we all recognise the ne...
Boris Johnson | 458 c504 (Link to this contribution) I keep being interrupted and asked to make fresh points. I am obviously stimulating much thought in ...
Bill Rammell | 458 c494 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend hits on a key point. The 27 per cent. increase in the part-time student grant that we...
Barry Sheerman | 458 c496 (Link to this contribution) Is not it a fact that we know our friends when there is a common and shared purpose and times are ro...
Stephen Williams | 458 c520-1 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady looks at my or the federal party website, she will see that the first thing that I ...
Bill Rammell | 458 c520 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, under the old system, poorer students on average ended up with ...
Subjects
Admissions Disadvantaged Finance Fees and charges Higher education Higher Education Funding Council for England Low incomes Loans Standards Universities Students Universities and Colleges Admissions Service
Link
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