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Committee proceeding and Debate on bill on Monday, 22 June 2009, in the House of Lords.

Welfare Reform Bill

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
711 c343-404GC 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c399-401GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an important debate. In responding, I will have the opportunity to put on the record a...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c401GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that not unreasonable point. We need to see where the carers’ strategy is heading. It i...
Show all contributions (144)
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c392-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, intended the amendment to be a precursor to ...
Baroness Murphy | 711 c393GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord consider a straightforward example? A plumber with osteoarthritis of the knee ca...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c359GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister probably cannot tell me now—I suspect that this has still to be determined, so he would...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c359GC (Link to this contribution) I think perhaps I have explained myself rather badly. I am interested not in the result of the pathf...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c362GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment, particularly because it raises a fundamental principle: do we or d...
Lord Lucas | 711 c360-2GC (Link to this contribution) My amendment coming after that of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, must seem terribly badly drafted,...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c360GC (Link to this contribution) So that would be about one-third or so of the total eligible lone parent population. I would be grat...
Baroness Crawley | 711 c364-6GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to dip my toe into the Welfare Reform Bill in front of my far more experienced Peers, but tha...
Baroness Crawley | 711 c366GC (Link to this contribution) I would be delighted if we came back to this, but it is because those excluded children are within t...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c367GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 3: Work-related activity: income support claimants and partners of claimants Amendment 74A ...
Countess of Mar | 711 c373GC (Link to this contribution) I am going back to training. The Minister has said that jobcentre staff will use their discretion in...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c372-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, for moving this important amendment. I am pleased that my n...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c374GC (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that the training and understanding of advisers is key in this issue, as in so much of...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c373-4GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may also throw in a question for my noble friend. When contact is made with a woman and, a...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c376GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 75 75: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— "Jobseeker’s allowance sanction r...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c349GC (Link to this contribution) I understand the point that my noble friend presses on me. I reiterate that it is no part of our cur...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c348-9GC (Link to this contribution) Would not my noble friend welcome having in his back pocket the possibility at some stage down the l...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c349GC (Link to this contribution) There is already in the Bill the clause abolishing income support—not yet, but when nobody needs it....
Countess of Mar | 711 c355GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness mentioned seasonal workers. Coming from a rural community as I do, I am used to t...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c357-8GC (Link to this contribution) First, I thank every member of the Committee who has taken part in this debate and for their support...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c354GC (Link to this contribution) I rise with some trepidation to make a few comments. I had not planned to make a speech and am relyi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c380GC (Link to this contribution) I am advised that it is not necessarily illegal, but I do not have chapter and verse on this and thi...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c380GC (Link to this contribution) From what has been said, it is clear that there is a considerable amount of discretion for the perso...
Countess of Mar | 711 c380GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that it is illegal for a child of 14 to be in a house on its own?
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c377-8GC (Link to this contribution) The new clause would create a new exemption from the application of Section 19 of the Jobseekers Act...
Countess of Mar | 711 c383GC (Link to this contribution) As well as the guidance, there is also the workload of the people involved to be considered. Perhaps...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c381GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to noble Lords who have supported the amendment, particularly the well considered...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c389GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for his amendments to Clauses 6 and 7. These clauses are ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c386GC (Link to this contribution) The point of a work-focused interview is to give an individual a chance to engage with what is entai...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c386GC (Link to this contribution) The only thing that single parents have to do is to turn up to these work-focused interviews. Until ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c387GC (Link to this contribution) I hope just to reinforce the points that I have already made. It is mandatory for people to turn up ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c387GC (Link to this contribution) Surely to goodness, that is explained in the initial interview. We have been worrying about lone par...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c389-90GC (Link to this contribution) Of course I will, but I asked for how long the protection is to continue. What I did not say in movi...
Baroness Murphy | 711 c392GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. It is completely unethical for any doctor, nurse or clinical psycholo...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c403-4GC (Link to this contribution) With the five-bedroom cap, the Government did not follow the committee’s recommendations. That has b...
Baroness Crawley | 711 c404GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment to adjourn the Committee until Thursday at two o’clock.
Baroness Crawley | 711 c394GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher, Lady Murphy and Lady Thomas, for their amendment. I hope...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c395GC (Link to this contribution) Why was it felt important when we debated the Mental Health Bill that these crucial safeguards were ...
Baroness Crawley | 711 c394-5GC (Link to this contribution) If you are looking beyond the warm words of Ministers in Hansard, we will see the evidence that we h...
Countess of Mar | 711 c392GC (Link to this contribution) I too support the amendment. The noble Lord has heard me carrying on enough about people with ME/CFS...
Baroness Murphy | 711 c393GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord would explain to me how that problem might be tackled as there is a real dang...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c393-4GC (Link to this contribution) We are back to the training of advisers and the right way in which to ask such questions. The noble ...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c394GC (Link to this contribution) If the Minister is clear, as she appears to be, that no claimant would be required to undertake medi...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c393GC (Link to this contribution) While a claimant is being interviewed and developing their action plan with the personal adviser the...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c397-9GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether there is a misconception here. No one is saying that the multitude of groups will b...
Countess of Mar | 711 c399GC (Link to this contribution) It strikes me that the noble Lord has just given a very good reason for Clause 7 being superfluous.
Countess of Mar | 711 c397GC (Link to this contribution) There are mothers of almost grown up or, indeed, grown-up autistic children who are carers and there...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c396GC (Link to this contribution) I will also speak to Clause 7 in general. Clause 7 gives the Secretary of State the power to abolish...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c396-7GC (Link to this contribution) I support what has already been said so far as income support is concerned, particularly with refere...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c395GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness and other noble Lords for their helpful contributions to the debate. I al...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c358GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has just said that pathfinders will run for two years. Does that mean that the individu...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c358GC (Link to this contribution) We should distinguish between the "work for your benefit" approach, where we envisage a six-month pr...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c359GC (Link to this contribution) That does not alter the fact that there is a fixed period and, sooner or later, those who have been ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c359GC (Link to this contribution) It very much depends on the evaluation of what comes from the pathfinders. If they prove successful ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c359-60GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to write to my noble friend, but I am advised that the pathfinders that we would roll out...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c364GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord believe that educating children at home is not work?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c363-4GC (Link to this contribution) This afternoon we have heard much about ballots and those Members of the Committee who have been her...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c362-3GC (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on an ingenious amendment that opens up the whole topic o...
Lord Lucas | 711 c366GC (Link to this contribution) Withdrawing an amendment is no problem in Grand Committee because it happens to the best of us, so t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c370-1GC (Link to this contribution) I support much of what the noble Baronesses, Lady Thomas and Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, have just sa...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c349GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the noble Baroness will be very pleased with me, but I caution the Minister in h...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c350GC (Link to this contribution) Responding first to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, it is inevitably the case, as my noble friend...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c350GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 71 withdrawn.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c353-4GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment was foreshadowed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, in her Second Reading speech and...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c355GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s clarification, and am glad that I confessed to my somewhat ou...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c358GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can help with at least some of my noble friend’s questions. As we have already discuss...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c354-5GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds, the noble Baroness’s understanding of the position 30 years ago is ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c354GC (Link to this contribution) I also support the amendment. As will be recalled, we discussed lone parents earlier in the passage ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c379-80GC (Link to this contribution) I can understand why the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has tabled this amendment but I hope, once ag...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c380GC (Link to this contribution) On extended schools, the local authorities are required to provide them, and those services refer to...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c378-9GC (Link to this contribution) We on this side of the Committee would be interested to know how the Minister replies on childcare f...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c376-7GC (Link to this contribution) This is a probing amendment. It concerns childcare for older children of parents who claim jobseeker...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c386GC (Link to this contribution) Would it help the noble Lord if I expanded on my comments? There are various steps along the conditi...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c385-6GC (Link to this contribution) Yet again, I am extremely grateful to the Minister. He spoke early on in his few words about this be...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c383-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for his amendments to Schedule 1. Earlier in Committee, I...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c385GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, we have made clear that at various stages it is quite appropriate for somebody to have with the...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c383GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment is welcome in that it gives us a chance to talk about the need for work-focused inter...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c386-7GC (Link to this contribution) What I am trying to explain is that, as I understand the position, they go along to these intermedia...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c387GC (Link to this contribution) At the risk of this turning into a playschool birthday party, I had better withdraw the amendment at...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c390GC (Link to this contribution) It is common practice when introducing social security changes to provide transitional protection—th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c390GC (Link to this contribution) I will have to think about that response. In the mean time, however, I beg leave to withdraw the ame...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c390GC (Link to this contribution) 79: Clause 6, page 12, line 45, at end insert— "(7) In section 14 of the Welfare Reform Act 2007 (c....
Baroness Meacher | 711 c390-1GC (Link to this contribution) It is clear that regulations making provision for action plans within the work-related activity requ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c345GC (Link to this contribution) I must confess that I got confused when reading this first amendment on today’s Marshalled List. We ...
Countess of Mar | 711 c345GC (Link to this contribution) I heartily support the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, in her amendment. Income support is not generous...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c346-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lady Hollis for the amendment and for her express support for the policy thr...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c344-5GC (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has said it all, including the quote that I was...
Lord Colwyn | 711 c344GC (Link to this contribution) There is a mistake in this amendment. In the last line of inserted subsection (7), instead of the wo...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c343-4GC (Link to this contribution) I shall be moving Amendment 72 as a separate amendment, but I shall not move Amendment 73, as we hav...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c343GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 71 71: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— "Work-related activity: additiona...
Lord Colwyn | 711 c343GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c348GC (Link to this contribution) I would need to check in more detail, but I do not believe that the Bill provides for a work-related...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c348GC (Link to this contribution) Let me make it clear: I do not object, in principle, to the issue of sanctions as I absolutely accep...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c347GC (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend tell me why the Government thought it was a good idea in the Green Paper and no ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c347GC (Link to this contribution) As often happens in the development of policy, we focus on one issue and then move on. The thrust of...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c347GC (Link to this contribution) Moved on or perhaps moved back—I am not sure. Has my noble friend any research evidence based on pil...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c347-8GC (Link to this contribution) We have very limited experience of the employment and support allowance. It came in only in October ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c358GC (Link to this contribution) They may do, but it is not inevitably the case. They probably would be there throughout the two year...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c358GC (Link to this contribution) Is it still the intention that pilots should last for six months? I agree with the noble Baroness, L...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c358GC (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister not need primary legislation for what he has just announced?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c359GC (Link to this contribution) It is expected that we would have transitional arrangements in place to protect those who were in re...
Lord Lucas | 711 c360GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 74 74: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— "Jobseekers who are home-educator...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c364GC (Link to this contribution) It may be very hard work. I am the father of two children—both are now adults. Looking after childre...
Baroness Crawley | 711 c367GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord and I might meet between now and Report to discuss these things. We will cert...
Lord Lucas | 711 c366-7GC (Link to this contribution) None the less, the parents and their children are very much in the same situation. Anyway, I admit m...
Lord Lucas | 711 c367GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. An hour spent in the noble Baroness’s company would be a joy in many respects. I beg ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c371-2GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support this amendment and declare an interest, going back many years now, when I was inv...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c375GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness. I saw the use of the terminology "domestic emergenc...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c375GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate: I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lad...
Baroness Crawley | 711 c375GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to take a break. Sitting suspended.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c375GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that further elucidation. We shall have to study carefully what he...
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 711 c368-70GC (Link to this contribution) First, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, for taking the lead on this amendment on my behalf. ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c367-8GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 74A seeks to include those who have left home due to domestic violence in the definition o...
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 711 c373GC (Link to this contribution) I should also like to pick up on that and the Minister can answer us both at the same time. The reas...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c350-3GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, identified, there are two separate issues. One is a premium fo...
Countess of Mar | 711 c401GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, may correct me but one thing that we are worried about is that care...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c402GC (Link to this contribution) It looks as though there is a great deal of fear among people who are now on income support, otherwi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c402GC (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that. This is why it is useful to have these exchanges. We need to reflect on how we c...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c402-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all those who have supported the amendment. It is significant that I was supported by three ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c403GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I would accept the comment that we simply plough on regardless, but perhaps the b...
Baroness Crawley | 711 c395GC (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. The noble Baroness makes a very strong point, and we will certainly take it away. We fee...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c397GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. Most people with mental health problems probably do not qualify for the var...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c395-6GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 7: Abolition of income support Amendment 80 80: Clause 7, page 13, line 12, at end insert "...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c349-50GC (Link to this contribution) I take that point. All that I was trying to suggest was that, if my noble friend was unwilling to ta...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c350GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 72 72: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— "Income disregard for lone parent...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c355-6GC (Link to this contribution) That remark reminds me of a book that I read years and years ago in which a good lady working as a r...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c356-7GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can give my noble friend more comfort on this amendment than on the previous one—altho...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c381GC (Link to this contribution) As I said earlier, children at the age of 14 are due to be in school for 30 hours a week, and a pare...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c380GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the period is 8 am through to 6 pm. My understanding is that a range of services do cat...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c377GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises an important point. We have so far talked about childcare largely as it re...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c386GC (Link to this contribution) I think all of us have understood the proposal correctly. Surely the only conditionality on a young ...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c385GC (Link to this contribution) Is a jobseeker entitled to take along a friend or adviser to a meeting at a job centre?
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c381GC (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1: Amendments connected to section 3 Amendment 75A 75A: Schedule 1, page 53, line 9, leav...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c381-3GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 75B and 76A. Over the past two weeks, thanks to the Minister’s resp...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c388-9GC (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 78, I shall speak also to Amendments 81 and 82. Clause 6 is designed to support...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c388GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 6: Transitional provision relating to sections 3 to 5 Amendment 78 78: Clause 6, page 12, l...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c386GC (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord kindly repeat his question?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c387GC (Link to this contribution) We are getting a bit repetitive and, I think, making somewhat heavy weather of this. It may well be ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c391-2GC (Link to this contribution) In the absence of my noble friend Lord Alderdice, whose name is on the amendment, I shall speak brie...
Subjects
Staff Disability Childcare Carers Advisory services Childminding Women Employment Jobseeker's allowance Income support Jobcentres Domestic abuse Interviews Income Jobcentre Plus Earnings rules Home education Mental illness Medical treatments Pilot schemes Parents Lone parents Social security benefits Social security Welfare tax credits Schools Special educational needs Training Unemployed people Labour market Employment and support allowance
Legislation
Welfare Reform Bill 2008-09
Link
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