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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 1 December 2010, in the House of Lords.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill (HL). Lords committee stage second day. Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Schedule 1: Office for Budget Responsibility, debated and agreed to. Clause 4: Main Duty of Office, under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
722 c179-226GC 
Session
2010-12
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Sassoon | 722 c221GC (Link to this contribution) It seems to deal with what should be excluded rather than what should be included. Due to the way th...
Lord Peston | 722 c215GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, put his finger on the central issue that we debated at some ...
Show all contributions (152)
Lord Peston | 722 c216GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment is not meant to constrain the OBR; it simply asks it to tell us what it has in mind, w...
Lord Peston | 722 c182-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister clarify one or two of his remarks? I got a bit lost. I think I am right ...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c211GC (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I agree with value for money, but the issue that we are discussing is the independence o...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c183GC (Link to this contribution) That is a very helpful thought. I shall in another context say that the parallel with the MPC is not...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c188GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not offer any th...
Lord Higgins | 722 c194GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I indicated earlier, what the Minister has proposed seems to be in line with the intent...
Lord Peston | 722 c197-8GC (Link to this contribution) I did not create this problem. I did not set this body up. Unlike all other noble Lords present, I d...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c189-90GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can be helpful on that point. The Government expect the appointment process for the BR...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c193GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord finishes, I should like to comment. I really am having road-to-Damascus experi...
Lord Skelmersdale | 722 c179GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I begin by repeating words that you have all heard many times before. If there is a Divisi...
Lord Peston | 722 c179GC (Link to this contribution) 9: Schedule 1, page 11, line 13, at end insert ““; and in making such nominations the Office will se...
Lord Peston | 722 c179-80GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 9 is grouped with Amendment 15, which my noble friend Lord Eatwell will speak to. I have d...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c180-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to speak to Amendment 15 in this group, which is tabled in my name and that of my n...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c181-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, although the noble Lord, Lord Peston, says that this is not necessarily the opportunity to...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c183GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in answer to the first question, to be clear again, it is certainly the case that there is...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c183GC (Link to this contribution) I suggest to the Minister one possible use of this third post: at some stage, it might be thought he...
Lord Skelmersdale | 722 c188GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister was in full flow and presumably wants to continue.
Lord Myners | 722 c188-9GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, I should like to make one point. There is a rather good article in th...
Lord Higgins | 722 c187GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with the point that just been made. It is true, as the Minister has said, that we ...
Bishop of Chester | 722 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would be a great mistake to regard being opposed to sin as the sole prerogative of the ...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c188GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Higgins referred to making this more acceptable to the committee. I remember re...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c186GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am quite puzzled by this amendment because we are moving into unusual territory. We beli...
Lord Peston | 722 c186-7GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may indicate one thought that has occurred to me, which the Minister might like to reflect...
Lord Desai | 722 c187GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, my Lords, I did not speak in the Second Reading debate or on Monday. The point here is a...
Lord Higgins | 722 c185GC (Link to this contribution) It will be interesting to know the Minister’s view on that one. I support the noble Lord in the view...
Lord Barnett | 722 c185-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. Although I am sure that the Minister will consider the amendm...
Lord Higgins | 722 c185GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am a little worried about the remark ““covering a multitude of sins”” as I was chairman ...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c185GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord and the right reverend Prelate will allow me to explain, I was using the term in t...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c184GC (Link to this contribution) 10: Schedule 1, page 11, line 13, at end insert ““, with the consent of the Treasury Committee of th...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c184-5GC (Link to this contribution) A peculiarity of Schedule 1 as drafted is that the members of the committee who are required to have...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c184GC (Link to this contribution) As I have said, I understand that; but when you are in the executive position, as the very distingui...
Lord Peston | 722 c184GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clarifications, particularly in relation to the application o...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c183-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s reaction to our Amendment 15; he said that he did not h...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c184GC (Link to this contribution) I want to clarify one matter. I was not for a minute suggesting that the Treasury Select Committee w...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c224GC (Link to this contribution) I was going to make two points. There is a further important consideration here, which is that we ha...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c224-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. This debate has been much more valuable than I expected when we sta...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c224GC (Link to this contribution) They are slipping terribly. In paragraph 4.12, the first bullet point states, "““where the fiscal im...
Lord Higgins | 722 c224GC (Link to this contribution) I am trying to be helpful; this is clearly rather more complicated than we may have thought a little...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c222GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may follow up that point. If Clause 5(3) is supposed to in some sense incorporate the noti...
Lord Higgins | 722 c222GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 5(3) on page 3 of the Bill is the subject of Amendment 30. However, I entirely agre...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c222GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may try again. Under Clause 4(1) it is the duty of the office to examine and report on the...
Lord Newby | 722 c222-3GC (Link to this contribution) Everybody agrees on the substance. The problem is that the Minister is trying to turn words that are...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c223-4GC (Link to this contribution) Do not push me, because I can sit down now. All the notes say ““Resist””, but there is ““resist”” wi...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c223GC (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. We have just heard clarity provided from this incredibly obscurantist piece of drafting....
Lord Higgins | 722 c223GC (Link to this contribution) When we consider my amendment which refers to Clause 5(3), I shall make a quite separate point. The ...
Lord Burns | 722 c223GC (Link to this contribution) There is an issue with the drafting of Clause 5 and I wonder whether we are trying to make subsectio...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c223GC (Link to this contribution) We are all trying to get to the same end. I do not think that this is a rerun of what we were talkin...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c218GC (Link to this contribution) 19: Clause 4, page 2, line 20, at end insert ““in the light of the Government’s economic policy””
Lord Eatwell | 722 c218-9GC (Link to this contribution) As Amendment 19 bears on the debate we have just had, I thought that it would be entirely appropriat...
Lord Higgins | 722 c218GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but as the noble Lord has kindly produced a letter on the ear...
Lord Higgins | 722 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I have, in fact, tabled an amendment to Clause 5(3)—Amendment 30, which we shall come to in due cour...
Lord Burns | 722 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I had assumed that the term ““economic policy”” encompassed all of the things that the Minister has ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c221GC (Link to this contribution) Again, I am advised that the drafting of the amendment would not necessarily achieve that end. If we...
Lord Burns | 722 c220GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been struggling with this debate. I have had difficulty in seeing where it was goin...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c220-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Burns. I think that he gets it right. I am sympathetic to the ...
Lord Higgins | 722 c214-5GC (Link to this contribution) In fact, as my noble friend has discovered, the letter was also available to the Committee today. In...
Lord Barnett | 722 c215GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, has referred to Amendment 27 in the name of my noble friend ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c216GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I regard the question of sustainability as very important, so much so that although I will...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed. The question is: what is appropriate to put in the legislation? There is an element here of ...
Lord Higgins | 722 c217-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are in danger of getting involved in metaphysics rather than econometrics. The absolute...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c218GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I tried to make clear in summary what the Government understand by ““sustainability””. It ...
Lord Higgins | 722 c218GC (Link to this contribution) That is a very helpful reply, if I may say so, but we cannot go along with the main object of the wh...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c218GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I have said, I am happy to discuss it with the OBR again, but it clearly believes that ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c214GC (Link to this contribution) The letter was intended to be helpful in advance of our discussion. It was sent around by e-mail ear...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c213GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, takes this away to consider before he comes back on Report, he ...
Lord Higgins | 722 c213-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 4 states: "““It is the duty of the Office to examine and report on the sustainabili...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c214GC (Link to this contribution) Is this a letter that only the noble Lord has received from my noble friend the Minister?
Lord Eatwell | 722 c213GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. She has given me some ideas to think about. I will go away and ...
Lord Higgins | 722 c213GC (Link to this contribution) 18: Clause 4, page 2, line 20, at end insert ““on the basis of section 1(2)(a) and (b)””
Baroness Noakes | 722 c214GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. This is an unorthodox way of distributing letters to Peers.
Lord Higgins | 722 c214GC (Link to this contribution) I presume that the Minister was seeking to be helpful to the Committee so that we should have it in ...
Lord Peston | 722 c214GC (Link to this contribution) We have all been given one. They are over there.
Lord Higgins | 722 c214GC (Link to this contribution) Has my noble friend now got a copy?
Lord Eatwell | 722 c212GC (Link to this contribution) The Ministers might care to look over their shoulders; they are being handed advice. There are two ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c212-3GC (Link to this contribution) Since the noble Lord is coming to the end of his remarks, I wanted to put something into, if you lik...
Lord Higgins | 722 c211GC (Link to this contribution) Some years ago, the Comptroller and Auditor-General and the PAC agreed that the Comptroller and Audi...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c211GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister's reply, although I am still confused about what he thinks ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c211-2GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help the noble Lord on the point of sensitivity. He is absolutely right: the Treasury ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I will come back to the noble Lord on that: I do not have the Bill in front of me. The point that I ...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c210GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord give me the paragraphs in Schedule 1 in which those propositions appear, so that...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c210-1GC (Link to this contribution) Paragraph 15 provides for the Treasury to make payment of grants in aid from the resources devoted b...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I thought that it was, but paragraph 15 does not contain the propositions that the noble Lord sugges...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me see if I can help by making clear what is actually going on and what is intended he...
Lord Higgins | 722 c209GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I presume that the Minister will confirm whether the budget is going to be published. If i...
Lord Burns | 722 c209GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the spirit of this amendment for the reasons put forward by the noble Lord, Lord...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a well known and effective method of controlling any nominally independent body is by cont...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c208GC (Link to this contribution) 16: Schedule 1, page 15, line 18, at end insert— ““( ) The budget for the annual operations of the O...
Lord Barnett | 722 c208GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again I intended this to be a very brief debate, but already it has taken 22 minutes. I am...
Lord Desai | 722 c207-8GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might try once more. There was a birth trauma when the OBR was established, and its indepe...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c207GC (Link to this contribution) It is clearly up to Robert Chote how he deploys his staff and what they do. Noble Lords obviously ha...
Lord Newby | 722 c207GC (Link to this contribution) Surely there is an easy solution: make the PA also responsible for freedom of information.
Lord Myners | 722 c206-7GC (Link to this contribution) So, the OBR will have its own information staff—it will not be relying on the Treasury for that. Of ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c201GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot give a breakdown of exactly what they all do, although it would be possible to do so. The o...
Lord Myners | 722 c201GC (Link to this contribution) I find it extraordinary that the Minister has just disclosed to the Committee that the OBR has a tot...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c201GC (Link to this contribution) There should be no surprise when I say that there are 13 people because I answered a Written Questio...
Lord Barnett | 722 c202GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was trying to be brief. I introduced this amendment by asking just a few questions so th...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c200-1GC (Link to this contribution) It is simply a matter of fact at the moment, because the OBR is not yet constituted on a statutory b...
Lord Peston | 722 c201GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may interrupt the noble Lord. Do his numbers include secretaries, computer programmers and...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c201GC (Link to this contribution) No, the noble Lord is right. The figure is the total number of staff.
Lord Peston | 722 c201GC (Link to this contribution) That figure of 13 includes secretaries, PAs and computer programmers?
Lord Barnett | 722 c202GC (Link to this contribution) 13: Schedule 1, page 14, line 3, at end insert— ““( ) The Office must make public the nature and mem...
Lord Barnett | 722 c202GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a simple question and I hope that the Minister will be able to reply. I have nothi...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c202-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 13 is intended to create a legal obligation for the OBR to publish the nature an...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, who, I think, gets it absolutely right. There i...
Lord Myners | 722 c206GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has made a very important point. Can he clarify whether, because the committee of the O...
Lord Barnett | 722 c205GC (Link to this contribution) I shall say a word about Amendment 34. It seeks to provide that: "““The Office will place in the pub...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c205-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems that an analogy is being drawn with the Monetary Policy Committee, whose minutes ...
Lord Myners | 722 c203-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak specifically to Amendment 14, which proposes that the budget responsibility commit...
Lord Peston | 722 c204-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there are three amendments in the group, but I want first to say a brief word about the am...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c203GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend. The amendment asks simply that the nature and membership of...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c203GC (Link to this contribution) For example, if the OBR wished to set up a sub-committee to deal with internal personnel matters, it...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c206GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord’s understanding is correct in so far as the OBR will be subject to freedom of informa...
Lord Myners | 722 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with those comments. However, the duties described in Clause 5(2) are subject to guidance gi...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c195-6GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Newby. As I understand it, the number of staff would be around 20. So...
Lord Newby | 722 c197GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord, Lord Peston, a quick question. Is he opposed to any staf...
Lord Peston | 722 c196-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not in the least concerned about the precise drafting of amendments, because all our ...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 722 c194GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not been provoked to rise by what the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, said about the Depa...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c193GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, gets too carried away with joining in with any opposi...
Lord Barnett | 722 c194GC (Link to this contribution) 12: Schedule 1, page 13, line 23, at end insert— ““( ) The staff must be employed solely by the Offi...
Lord Newby | 722 c195GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the provision in paragraph 8(2) of Schedule 1is sensible. It states: "““Staff are to be em...
Lord Barnett | 722 c194-5GC (Link to this contribution) Listening to the previous debate, I am even more confused than I was before about which staff are no...
Lord Higgins | 722 c200GC (Link to this contribution) I intervene because I think that the Minister is winding up on this amendment. Why is it assumed tha...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c199-200GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we need to step back and, in answer to the fundamental challenge of my noble friend Lord H...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 722 c199GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may make an analogy which is completely separate from that that we have been dis...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c197GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am amazed at the sheer unrealism of the proposition of the noble Lord, Lord Peston. If t...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c197GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I profoundly disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Peston. I do not know what the initial pos...
Lord Peston | 722 c197GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, categorically. The Bill refers to them as the staff of the OBR. We can argue about language, bu...
Lord Higgins | 722 c199GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one could look worldwide and still fail to find better experts on the practical implicatio...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c198-9GC (Link to this contribution) This is a tricky issue but the balance has been struck by a combination of the noble Lord, Lord Turn...
Lord Burns | 722 c198GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Turnbull and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. This amendment is total...
Lord Myners | 722 c190GC (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister share my concern that, because these two members have not been approved by the Tre...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c190GC (Link to this contribution) Certainly it is important that the non-executives are people of independent standing and stature who...
Lord Higgins | 722 c190GC (Link to this contribution) Am I to understand that the Treasury Select Committee said that it wanted to be involved in the appo...
Bishop of Chester | 722 c190GC (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord comment on the fundamental point I made in my earlier contribution that, as it is...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c190GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is indeed the position. It may be extraordinary but, as I have tried to explain, it i...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c189GC (Link to this contribution) But the FSA now interviews non-executive directors from major financial institutions.
Lord Sassoon | 722 c189GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not had a chance to read that article. If we have another break, I shall go and do ...
Lord Myners | 722 c189GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that appointments to this committee will follow the same procedures and pr...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c189GC (Link to this contribution) The FSA does not appoint the boards of directors. We are talking here about public sector boards, an...
Lord Higgins | 722 c193GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on one occasion when the Government that the late Iain Macleod was opposing accepted an am...
Lord Myners | 722 c193GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think we can allow it to go unnoticed that the Minister, in his reference to ““shoe leather...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c192-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that we might be able to dispose of this a little more speedily than some other mat...
Lord Barnett | 722 c192GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is really all about perception. We all know Robert Chote, the chairman; I respect him a...
Lord Higgins | 722 c192GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the theme running through all our proceedings has been that the OBR shall be seen to be in...
Lord Higgins | 722 c192GC (Link to this contribution) 11: Schedule 1, page 13, line 21, at end insert— ““( ) The Office shall not be located in the Treasu...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c191-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, having had the opportunity to listen to noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, I h...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c191GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the latter point, I say again that the fact that it is intended that, as part of the no...
Bishop of Chester | 722 c191GC (Link to this contribution) My concern was that they are nominated by the office itself in an almost self-perpetuating sense. Wh...
Subjects
Audit Finance Fiscal policy Economic situation Economic policy Forecasts Public appointments Public expenditure Staff Public finance Public sector debt Treasury Treasury Committee Office for Budget Responsibility Chote, Robert
Legislation
Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk