Skip to main content

Debate on bill on Wednesday, 14 September 2011, in the House of Commons.


Energy Bill (HL)

Energy Bill (HL). Report stage debate. New clause 10, discussed with new clause 8, debated and added to the Bill. New clause 11, discussed with new clauses 12 and 17, debated and added to the Bill. New clauses 12 and 13 added to the Bill. New clause 1, discussed with new clauses, 2 to 4, 7, 18 and 19, debated and negatived on division (229 votes to 300). Queen's and Prince of Wales's consent signified. Third reading debate. Agreed to on question. Bill read the third time and passed, with amendments.


Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
532 c1043-145 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department of Energy and Climate Change
Legislative stage
Third reading
Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Prince of Wales's consent
Queen's consent
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Chris Huhne | 532 c1141-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. The ministerial team is pressing Ofgem to move...
John Baron | 532 c1141 (Link to this contribution) On that issue, may I congratulate the Secretary of State and the Government on accepting the recomme...
Show all contributions (167)
Graham P Jones | 532 c1144-5 (Link to this contribution) In these final 15 seconds, I should like to say that there are real concerns in the Bill for the poo...
Meg Hillier | 532 c1144 (Link to this contribution) We will wait to see whether the energy company obligation will truly deliver, because we have real d...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1145 (Link to this contribution) I support the Government's intention in this Bill, but— Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 10 May...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1143 (Link to this contribution) I am no apologist for this Government, but I must observe that in Labour's 13 years in government CO...
Meg Hillier | 532 c1142-3 (Link to this contribution) At last we are here at the Third Reading of a Bill that has dropped off the parliamentary agenda mor...
Chris Huhne | 532 c1144 (Link to this contribution) May I point out to the hon. Lady that the Government have increased the funding for vulnerable group...
Meg Hillier | 532 c1143-4 (Link to this contribution) We all share the mission of reducing carbon emissions, and we have all supported the Government in s...
Chris Huhne | 532 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The bulk of the Bill is about energy effic...
William Cash | 532 c1141 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State accept that wind farms have generated serious concerns all over the coun...
Chris Huhne | 532 c1140 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. I begin by thanking the many hon. Members ...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1127 (Link to this contribution) I broadly support those recommendations, although we might have to address some of the detail, such ...
John Baron | 532 c1127 (Link to this contribution) In short, does the Minister accept the three recommendations of the billing stakeholder group, which...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1125-6 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, because I have to get through these points. The backstop is 2018—the point at ...
Graham P Jones | 532 c1113 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady mentioned hard-to-treat homes and solid-wall insulation. Is she saying that those who ...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I am listening closely to the hon. Lady, and I admit that the Government have not yet come forward w...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his intervention, and I am pleased to see his impatience for me to get to t...
David Mowat | 532 c1110 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Lady care to tell the House approximately how much she believes is available or neede...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1110-1 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman holds on for just a moment, I will come to those very figures. Indeed, the que...
Graham Stringer | 532 c1111 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is making a powerful case, with which I agree, in criticising the market-based approac...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1111-2 (Link to this contribution) I did not see that piece in The Daily Telegraph, but I would query some of the assumptions on which ...
Graham P Jones | 532 c1102-4 (Link to this contribution) I had intended to raise later the issue of retaliatory eviction and the fact that landlords put pres...
John Leech | 532 c1104-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to amendments 2 to 6 and 8, in my name and those of right hon. and hon. colleagues on ...
Lord Whitehead | 532 c1107-9 (Link to this contribution) I will address my remarks to amendments 9 to 12, which I tabled. I will also put those amendments in...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1109-10 (Link to this contribution) I associate myself with the comments made in support of the amendments tabled by the hon. Members fo...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1114-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I welcome the fact that health and wellbeing boards are...
Sarah Newton | 532 c1114 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady accept that the Government are taking other measures? For example, in the recentl...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1114 (Link to this contribution) Thank you. I commend to the hon. Gentleman the report of the all-party parliamentary group, which wa...
Speaker | 532 c1114 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the hon. Lady answers, let me say that the hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1113 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I think he is asking me whether, over those three year...
Simon Wright | 532 c1113 (Link to this contribution) For how much longer, then, will it go on for the groups that your all-party parliamentary group spok...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1113 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his intervention. I hope he will allow me to explain my proposal. It would ...
Simon Wright | 532 c1113 (Link to this contribution) Was the three-year time scale you mentioned the period over which you envisage this £2.5 billion to ...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1113 (Link to this contribution) If money were no object, I would love to see hard-to-treat homes subsidised through the ECO, even fo...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1113 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady is not prepared to subsidise solid-wall insulation, does she accept that many able-...
Tessa Munt | 532 c1098 (Link to this contribution) I am particularly concerned and exercised about people who never receive a bill, particularly pre-pa...
John Baron | 532 c1098 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point and I shall come to that issue in relation to new clause 19. Alth...
John Baron | 532 c1098-9 (Link to this contribution) If I may finish dealing with the two proposals, I will give my hon. Friend her chance again. Second...
Speaker | 532 c1095 (Link to this contribution) I have now to announce the result of a Division deferred from a previous day. On the motion relating...
John Baron | 532 c1096 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak to new clause 19, to which my name is attached. There is much evidence to suggest t...
Jim Shannon | 532 c1096 (Link to this contribution) Clarification is needed on the green deal and prepayment meters, which are a method that households ...
John Baron | 532 c1096-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a decent point. There is a lack of clarity on a range of issues. We want to...
Graham P Jones | 532 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I am concerned that some people with prepayment meters will not be able to switch to direct debit. W...
John Baron | 532 c1097-8 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair point, but I would say in reply that what we need is greater clarity on bills about t...
Mark Tami | 532 c1101-2 (Link to this contribution) In my area there is a high demand for private rented accommodation, but many tenants who come to see...
Graham P Jones | 532 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I should like to speak to amendments 24, 23 and 25, which deal with the registration of information ...
John Baron | 532 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for those questions. I hope that both of them would be addressed by the resea...
Albert Owen | 532 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for coming in and out of the debate because, like many other hon. Members, I have had to...
Tessa Munt | 532 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether my hon. Friend's proposals and discussions include a number of people who pay by di...
John Baron | 532 c1100 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a fair point. Undertaking market research into the two proposals and getting en...
Mike Weir | 532 c1100 (Link to this contribution) To pursue the point made by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), does the hon. Gentleman not ...
John Baron | 532 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point. I hope that there will be no discrimination in how...
Guy Opperman | 532 c1099 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the clarity of bill point that he is making eloquently and well would...
Speaker | 532 c1073 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Charles Hendry | 532 c1073 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1074 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister be a little more precise about the exact definition of the word ““prudent”” in thi...
Charles Hendry | 532 c1073-4 (Link to this contribution) We now move on to a series of technical and miscellaneous new clauses and amendments, which cover nu...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 532 c1080-1 (Link to this contribution) I love it when we get to technical and miscellaneous amendments. They sound innocuous, but as the Mi...
Cathy Jamieson | 532 c1078-80 (Link to this contribution) I will make a few remarks about amendment 51. This will perhaps be a rare moment of solidarity with...
Mike Weir | 532 c1076 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that the repeal was part of the legislative competence motion passed by th...
Charles Hendry | 532 c1074-6 (Link to this contribution) We have chosen to use the word ““prudent”” not only because it is a concept that is established in l...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1077-8 (Link to this contribution) I am seeking to amend new clause 11, which was based on a clause that was withdrawn by the Governmen...
Charles Hendry | 532 c1076-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. This is a devolved matter that we have discussed with the Sc...
Charles Hendry | 532 c1084-5 (Link to this contribution) [Interruption.] I was not anticipating such a rapid end to that important contribution. I am gratefu...
Lord Whitehead | 532 c1083-4 (Link to this contribution) I want to comment briefly on new clause 11 and, in doing so, echo the remarks of my hon. Friend the ...
Mike Weir | 532 c1082-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree that it is important that targets are set and delivered upon, but I do not agree that energy...
Cathy Jamieson | 532 c1081 (Link to this contribution) One concern is that even if statutory provision did not act as a driver, a purely voluntary code of ...
Baroness Berger | 532 c1091-5 (Link to this contribution) With so many households struggling under the weight of increased energy bills and fuel poverty at re...
Speaker | 532 c1086-91 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Baroness Berger | 532 c1086 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Charles Hendry | 532 c1085-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady raises an entirely separate issue. A funded decommissioning programme is constantly re...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1085 (Link to this contribution) If the liabilities are fixed so that uncertain messages are not being given to the investors, but th...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1066-7 (Link to this contribution) That is a very important point. I do not rule it out completely. It is unnecessary to do so at this ...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1066 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that he is still leaving the door open to using the green investment bank ...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1067 (Link to this contribution) All of those issues are the subject of a constructive and thoughtful conversation between my Departm...
Lord Whitehead | 532 c1067 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister says that he is pushing for a generous ECO, does he mean that he is pushing the Tr...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1068 (Link to this contribution) There will be a commercial consideration involved, because those matters are not lost on participant...
Baroness Berger | 532 c1067 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has said that interest rates are just one element, and we have argued that it is integr...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1068-9 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the hon. Lady is wrong. We have a huge degree of engagement with consumer groups. A...
Baroness Berger | 532 c1068 (Link to this contribution) We are obviously aware of the stakeholder groups and the consultations going on in DECC, but as far ...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1069 (Link to this contribution) The default rate will be the same as the standard default rate for electricity bills generally, whic...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1069 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has explained candidly that the ECO is a regressive measure that will be imposed on gen...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1071 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that, if we are really to reduce fuel poverty, we need to place the first u...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1070-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes an indisputable point. We are mindful of the mistakes made by the previous Labou...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1069 (Link to this contribution) The Minister rightly says that there is no magic pot of money, but there are certainly progressive a...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1071 (Link to this contribution) I am of course familiar with that argument of rising block tariffs, but that too has unintended cons...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1072 (Link to this contribution) There will be access to the energy annual statement, which will make that crystal clear. Energy sup...
Baroness Berger | 532 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for stating the developments for those customers who have the same ene...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1124 (Link to this contribution) As the Bill Committee and, in particular, the Chairman of the Environmental Audit Committee suggeste...
Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 532 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening very carefully to the Minister, but I do not quite get how we will measure tha...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1124 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister undertake to make Lord Turner's advice available to Members who sat on the Bill Co...
Tessa Munt | 532 c1120 (Link to this contribution) I cannot resist the opportunity to discuss transmission. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, in fact...
Albert Owen | 532 c1120 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, which is why those people need greater protection. The Offic...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1121-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to all the amendments tabled by the Opposition and Back-Bench Members in this group. T...
Albert Owen | 532 c1120-1 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. To be fair to the national grid, as part of our inquiry into the market, we went to see ...
Albert Owen | 532 c1118-9 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman). I welcome him back to the Hous...
Guy Opperman | 532 c1117-8 (Link to this contribution) I totally endorse that. In certain areas in Northumberland, such as in the communities of Tarset and...
Sarah Newton | 532 c1117 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. Does he agree that there are some very good ini...
Guy Opperman | 532 c1116-7 (Link to this contribution) I agree with all those points and applaud the efforts of the Government, and especially the Minister...
Sarah Newton | 532 c1116 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is giving a comprehensive account of a problem that we in the west country also face,...
Guy Opperman | 532 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I would certainly welcome hearing what the Minister has to say on that. The point, however, is that ...
Mike Weir | 532 c1116 (Link to this contribution) That problem also arises in many other parts of the country, particularly in Scotland. The tradition...
Guy Opperman | 532 c1115-6 (Link to this contribution) It is no exaggeration to say that the citizens of Northumberland are often faced with a straight cho...
Albert Owen | 532 c1119 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the spirit in which he made his intervention. However, I thi...
Mike Weir | 532 c1119-20 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. I, too, have called for those changes. Earlier, I was try...
John Baron | 532 c1119 (Link to this contribution) I think I said that subsection (c) of new clause 19 calls for research to choose the best message an...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1042 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 532 c1043 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1046 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that there is a world of difference between a community group knocking on a ...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1046 (Link to this contribution) I am sympathetic to the thrust of the hon. Lady's amendment, but it is not illegal to sell things do...
Robert Smith | 532 c1046 (Link to this contribution) On the code of practice, will the Minister ensure that all lessons are learnt from the failure of th...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1049 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will keep all elements of the green deal under close review....
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1048-9 (Link to this contribution) I will need to consider that more carefully, because we accept that assessors can be part of commerc...
Andrea Leadsom | 532 c1049 (Link to this contribution) The green deal seems to be a financial services product, and there will be similarities between sell...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1047-8 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that an assessor would knock on someone's door, undertake a green d...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1048 (Link to this contribution) Although I agree that it should always be open to people to switch to a cheaper tariff, I am sure th...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1047 (Link to this contribution) That is a good point. We certainly do not anticipate that assessors would be able to go door to door...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1047 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again; he is being extremely generous. Will he confirm ...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1047 (Link to this contribution) Yes. I have a great deal of sympathy with that point. We believe strongly that high-pressure sales t...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1047 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister also ensure that when the new measures under the green deal are being touted door ...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1049 (Link to this contribution) As this is defined as consumer finance, it will be the Office of Fair Trading, rather than the FSA, ...
Mike Weir | 532 c1049 (Link to this contribution) One of the problems with energy mis-selling was that it was a long time before many of the cases cam...
Lord Whitehead | 532 c1053-4 (Link to this contribution) I am very sympathetic to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that there should be a non-discriminatory i...
Andrew Percy | 532 c1053 (Link to this contribution) I looked at the hon. Lady's new clause and amendments, which are interesting. I look forward to hear...
Ian Lavery | 532 c1055 (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned the ECO, which focuses in two directions. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that ...
Andrew Percy | 532 c1054 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point and will be interested to hear Ministers' response to it. Although...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1053 (Link to this contribution) I perfectly understand the hon. Gentleman's point that the debt will be tied to the property and tha...
Andrew Percy | 532 c1052-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend. I am aware of his work in this area. He has said exactly what I am going on ...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1053 (Link to this contribution) I very much support the tenor of the hon. Gentleman's remarks and I wonder whether he supports my ne...
Andrew Percy | 532 c1053 (Link to this contribution) That, of course, is exactly what the golden rule is designed to protect against. My concern is that ...
Andrew Percy | 532 c1055 (Link to this contribution) That is entirely the right principle. The communities to which I have referred, many of whom I repre...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1055 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to five of the 15 new clauses and amendments in this group. New clause 8 would r...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1056 (Link to this contribution) It is not correct to compare the two schemes. The German scheme consists of a normal personal loan, ...
Baroness Berger | 532 c1051 (Link to this contribution) We are delighted that the Government are keeping the amendments proposed in Committee. We accept the...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1051 (Link to this contribution) One or two, or small numbers, may fall through the net, but by and large we have to think about how ...
Ian Lavery | 532 c1051 (Link to this contribution) The energy company obligation does not wholly focus on the people I mentioned, though. My worry is t...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1051 (Link to this contribution) Of course they will have access, although it might vary in individual cases—I cannot give a universa...
Ian Lavery | 532 c1050 (Link to this contribution) Getting back to the financing of the green deal, is the Minister aware that 1.9 million people are i...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I have not raised the matter in person, but my officials are working closely with a number of Depart...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1050 (Link to this contribution) The Office of Fair Trading will regulate the contracts. Has the Minister been in contact with his co...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1050 (Link to this contribution) There has not been any substantive development on that because we have not yet undertaken the consul...
Baroness Berger | 532 c1049-50 (Link to this contribution) Given the Minister's response to the question from the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andre...
Andrew Percy | 532 c1051-2 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to my amendment 28. I am delighted to hear the Minister say that he will respond to ...
John Leech | 532 c1052 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the people most likely to be impacted by high interest rates are ...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1064 (Link to this contribution) We will have to disagree on this. I understand the protections that the hon. Gentleman is trying to ...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1063-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the fact that the Minister has said that customers and consumers will be protected by cons...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1065-6 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman is not quite an unreconstructed, planned-economy socialist, but he is...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has effectively said that in his view, the green deal is market driven—that is a fundam...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1066 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's question is predicated on a misunderstanding. It will simply not be possible fo...
Ian Lavery | 532 c1066 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give a categorical guarantee that anyone who cannot pay the green deal part of the...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1058 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady will remember that when the financial services regulations were introduced, banks had ...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1056-8 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful for that helpful intervention. It focuses on some of the contradictions in r...
Lord Whitehead | 532 c1056 (Link to this contribution) In the light of the Minister's intervention, the hon. Lady might want to point out to him that the l...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1056 (Link to this contribution) We discussed this matter in Committee, so I know that the Minister and I do not agree. I still do no...
Baroness Berger | 532 c1062 (Link to this contribution) It is helpful at this point to refer to the Treasury levy cap, which has not yet been mentioned. We ...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1059-61 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), who has ...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1058-9 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree. Trust is crucial if the green deal is to be successful. We want people to be tal...
Caroline Lucas | 532 c1063 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister can clarify things a little further. On amendment 50 and comparability...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1063 (Link to this contribution) Such people can certainly access the advice line. If people choose to pay in full and not to take fi...
Barry Gardiner | 532 c1062 (Link to this contribution) The shadow Minister is absolutely right that there has yet to be clarity on the issue, and clarity i...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1062-3 (Link to this contribution) I should like to start by thanking the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for tabli...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1124-5 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to do so. Indeed, I am sure that Members will have further ideas on how to build up ...
John Baron | 532 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has a point, but his proposal goes only so far. My problem is that energy bills a...
Mike Weir | 532 c1081 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on nuclear power, whi...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Lady, but then I really do need to make some progress so that we can ge...
Lord Barker of Battle | 532 c1044-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to be back in the House to debate this historic Energy Bill one last time before it...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Consumers Decommissioning Conservation Climate change Apprentices Billing Finance Environment protection Energy Fuel poverty Housing improvement Insulation Interest rates Landlord and tenant Local government Low incomes Protection Ministerial responsibility Payments Nuclear power stations Ministers Prices Private rented housing Subsidies Green Investment Bank Green deal scheme Energy company obligation Social tariffs
Legislation
Energy Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk