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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Friday, 21 October 2011, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Steel of Aikwood. The answering member was Lord Brabazon of Tara.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

House of Lords Reform Bill (HL). Lords debate on an order of consideration motion on amendments for committee stage agreed on division (175 to 16). Lords committee stage. Clauses 1-19 agreed. Bill reported with amendments.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
731 c451-534 
Session
2010-12
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
Timetabling of bills
Closure motions
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Low of Dalston | 731 c523 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with respect, I wanted to suggest that we follow precisely the correct procedure of which ...
Show all contributions (343)
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c523 (Link to this contribution) If I can just interject, we are on Amendment 142. It is possible, and there is time, to deal with Am...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c523 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords, with respect to the Chairman, we are debating Amendment 142 at the moment and the nobl...
Lord Hughes of Woodside | 731 c523 (Link to this contribution) It was indeed, and that we would not be faced with the prospect that we faced this morning when we t...
Lord Cormack | 731 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is not what has been proposed. If the Report stage solution is adopted, Amendment 163...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 731 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may help the House to know that my noble friend Lord Dubs does not intend to move his a...
Lord Cormack | 731 c527 (Link to this contribution) If we took the advice of my noble friend Lord Shutt and deferred everything remaining until Report, ...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c527 (Link to this contribution) Can I just alert your Lordships to a danger? If we say that all the amendments are withdrawn and tha...
Lord Tyler | 731 c527 (Link to this contribution) Of course, Amendment 163 does not have to be pressed to a Division either.
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c526 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Caithness and I cannot be asked to agree something on behalf of other noble Lor...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c526 (Link to this contribution) I would be quite happy to move the amendment; that would take us through to 3.30 pm. It is a schedul...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c525-6 (Link to this contribution) 162: After Clause 19, insert the following new Schedule— ““SCHEDULE The Joint Committee on the House...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c524-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, is very beguiling and put the onus firmly on my nob...
Lord Haskel | 731 c531 (Link to this contribution) The Question is that Amendment 3 be agreed to.
Lord Cormack | 731 c530 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. The fact of the matter is that at any stage he...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c530 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the procedure we are currently following is indeed filibustering by another name. We are b...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must respond to the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I say to the noble Baroness that I am not fili...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 731 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, why can we not have another Committee day and finish the Committee that way?
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c529 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Hansard will show that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, addressed a point only 10 minutes a...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c529 (Link to this contribution) Now I understand exactly what noble Lords are after, and I do not like it: it gets worse and worse. ...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c530 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I intervene because I have had experience of this: it happened during wash-up. I am afraid...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c528 (Link to this contribution) 1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““Part A1 Purpose of the Act Provisions contain...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c529 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like my noble friend I am in some confusion and difficulty. We have nine clauses left to c...
Lord Cormack | 731 c529 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it will be considered in an orderly manner on Report and we will have the benefit of havin...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c528 (Link to this contribution) 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out ““a Commission (““the Commission””)”” and insert ““an Appoint...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c504 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fully support my noble friend in his amendment, which is excellent. However, I look forw...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c504 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to be honest, I was completely agnostic about this amendment. My initial reaction was that...
Lord Hughes of Woodside | 731 c504 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, just for the record, Members of your Lordships' House are allowed to vote in the Scottish ...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c502 (Link to this contribution) With the undertaking from my noble friend, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 136 wit...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c499 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I delayed rising in the hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench had some answers. I d...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c499 (Link to this contribution) If I said that, I was completely wrong. I did not mean to say that. If I said it, I certainly withdr...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c499 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. Either I misheard or there was a lack of communication. I ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c513 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think—though I bow to the expertise of my noble friend Lord Norton sitting next to me—th...
Viscount Astor | 731 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I looked just now at the amendment that I had put down, I thought to myself, ““Why on...
Viscount Astor | 731 c513 (Link to this contribution) Well, I am grateful for support wherever I can get it. I am grateful, too, to my noble friend Lord S...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c513 (Link to this contribution) I remind my noble friend Lord Astor that it is up to the person who introduces the Bill to get the a...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment is of course adopting the arguments that have been deployed quite effectivel...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot be persuaded by that at all. I agree with my noble friend that the size of the Ho...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am afraid that I must disagree with my noble friend Lord Trefgarne on this. The most imp...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are anticipating that the main Bill, subject to the scrutiny by the Joint Select Commit...
Lord Tyler | 731 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend recognise that the whole theme of today’s debate—and, I thought, the consensus ...
Lord Cormack | 731 c512 (Link to this contribution) We are anticipating no such thing. Some of us hope that these proposals will come to naught. Others ...
Lord Cormack | 731 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am certainly very much opposed to having a referendum on this Bill. This is a series of ...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c508 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, that this is not a ground-brea...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c508 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to truncate the debate, but I want to reply to the mover of the amendment. I...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise in advance as I may be a little longer on this amendment than I have been on o...
Lord Selsdon | 731 c510 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was very flattered by that.
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c504-5 (Link to this contribution) I think my noble friend is correct. I said that I was agnostic about the amendment, but I am actuall...
Lord Cormack | 731 c504 (Link to this contribution) This is a very important matter that has far-reaching consequences and implications, so could we not...
Lord Northbrook | 731 c521 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am disappointed that we will not be discussing the appointments commission today, partic...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c521-2 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to the same point as the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook. I am not sure that the noble L...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c522 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but is not that hypothesis incorrect? The noble Earl makes a big statement, which he is ...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c522 (Link to this contribution) If this Bill gets to the House of Commons, it might get through. We cannot tell what is going to hap...
Viscount Astor | 731 c520 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. I now understand the point that my noble friend was making and I am grateful to ...
Lord Low of Dalston | 731 c521 (Link to this contribution) With great respect, is it not possible for us to achieve what I think the House as a whole wants to ...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 731 c521 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the expression on the Clerk’s face said it all. I am sorry it was not possible for everyon...
Lord Cormack | 731 c520 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly support what both my noble friend Lord Steel and the noble Baroness, Lady Royal...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c520 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand that the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as to whether we have...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) For the third time, we have done useful work today. We have carried out the work that we are here to...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 731 c519 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a matter of opinion as to whether we have done good work today. The noble Lord, Lord...
Viscount Astor | 731 c519 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could ask my noble friend Lord Steel a question. He has an amendment coming up, Amendment ...
Lord Haskel | 731 c518 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord responds, I have to call Amendment 143 as an amendment to Amendment 142.
Earl of Caithness | 731 c518 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in order to allow the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to speak, I am not going to move Amendments ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c518 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have done very useful work today—
Lord Northbrook | 731 c498 (Link to this contribution) I have two problems with the clause. First, the definition of a serious criminal offence could cause...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c498 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree in principle that in certain circumstances noble Lords convicted of an offence sho...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c498 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my comments apply to all the amendments to this clause and I will not make them again—alth...
Lord Swinfen | 731 c498 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has just brought up the point I was going to raise. Unfortunately, one or two regime...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c496 (Link to this contribution) My answer to my noble friend Lord Caithness is very simple: I do not think that there is any magic i...
Viscount Astor | 731 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) You could be tagged, as my noble friend said. I understood that one of the important principles of t...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c489 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given that the rationale used by every speaker who wants to support the proposed new claus...
Lord St John of Fawsley | 731 c489 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I put this question to your Lordships? Who is the wisest person in this House? In my o...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c488 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a foolish idea to set an arbitrary age limit. There are some people who are pretty b...
Lord Grenfell | 731 c488 (Link to this contribution) When I declared an interest, it did not imply that it was in self-interest that I was making the arg...
Lord Cobbold | 731 c489 (Link to this contribution) An alternative, my Lords, is to have a fixed period of service for all Members of the House. That wo...
Lord Howe of Aberavon | 731 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare a special interest, at the age of 84, although a number of others no doubt share...
Viscount Astor | 731 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a previous proposed new clause was intended to get rid of your Lordships who cannot come t...
Lord Norton of Louth | 731 c494 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not understand the amendment. It appears to be consequential on Amendment 128, which ...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c494 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very simple amendment, which I hope my noble friend will be able to accept. It s...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c494 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords, it is not consequential on Amendment 128. I did not accept the groupings. I did not gr...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c493 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely take my noble friend's point. As I said to him earlier, that is not going to work becau...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c495 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I do not have a copy of the revised groupings list. I am...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c495 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at this stage it may be helpful to mention that we are running out of groupings on the lis...
Lord Elton | 731 c481 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it will be important when we get to Amendment 123 to recall that the other amendments in t...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c481 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as we have been debating the problem of reordering the Bill at the last minute, will the G...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c480 (Link to this contribution) 122: Before Clause 11, insert the following new Clause— ““Termination of membership of House of Lord...
Viscount Astor | 731 c480 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder if I could ask a question of those constitutional experts, and I am sure there ar...
Viscount Astor | 731 c482 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, could my noble friend clarify this so that I am absolutely sure? As he rightly said, we ar...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c482 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the House decided earlier this morning the order in which it wanted to discuss a Private M...
Lord Northbrook | 731 c482 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will I also be able to move Amendment 73, which refers to Section 10, in the same way?
Viscount Astor | 731 c481 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, while my noble friend on the Front Bench receives some advice, perhaps I could help your L...
Lord Hughes of Woodside | 731 c481 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene again but the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, ought not to repeatedly turn his b...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c481 (Link to this contribution) Again I apologise to the noble Lord. As I was saying—I will say it again quickly—we are now dealing ...
Viscount Astor | 731 c484 (Link to this contribution) 124: Clause 12, page 5, line 33, leave out ““sufficient”” and insert ““reasonable””
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c482-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before I withdraw the amendment—as I will do in a moment—is it not clear, following the Mo...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c483 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I of course accept that the House decided to agree to my noble friend Lord Steel’s Motion ...
Lord Dubs | 731 c483 (Link to this contribution) 123: Clause 12, page 5, line 27, leave out ““member of the House of Lords”” and insert ““Member of t...
Lord Dubs | 731 c483 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should offer a brief word of explanation. My amendment is one of a series that crosses f...
Lord Colwyn | 731 c483 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord is going to speak to this amendment, he must move it.
Lord Grenfell | 731 c487 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure that I agree with that. We have to be very careful in setting a limit. I dec...
Viscount Astor | 731 c484 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for accepting my amendment. Amendment 124 agreed. Amendment 125 ...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c484 (Link to this contribution) 125: Clause 12, page 5, line 34, at end insert— ““( ) A Member of the House of Lords who has taken l...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think that my noble friend will be quite as receptive to this amendment as he was...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c486 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Caithness is right. I am not going to suggest that we accept the amen...
Lord Hughes of Woodside | 731 c477 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand exactly what the noble Earl is saying. It may well be that some of us are goi...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 731 c478 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, just to comment on what the noble Viscount has said, the amendment is not relevant to this...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c479 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to make two, I hope, perfectly sensible points. In previous discussions, the ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 731 c479 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish it to be on record that many of us who believe that there should be a change of nam...
Lord True | 731 c472 (Link to this contribution) I am certainly aware of that. As I understand the way in which your Lordships' House operates, the d...
Lord True | 731 c473 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was describing to the House—I could do so at greater length but this is not the place to...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c473 (Link to this contribution) I am very surprised that we have not heard from my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire. What is th...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 731 c473 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Government are not in favour of undertaking piecemeal reform. We are moving with all d...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was a very proud member of my Government, but I was not a member of the Government at th...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c468 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for my remarks. I know that there is one such Parliament; I should not have me...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c468 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will briefly raise a few points. I am very proud to be a Privy Counsellor. However, Clau...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 731 c469 (Link to this contribution) I said that I agree that the topping-up system is a farce, but it could easily become not a farce if...
Lord Selsdon | 731 c469-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been in your Lordships' House for a period of time, and I refer you to Standing Ord...
Lord Marlesford | 731 c469 (Link to this contribution) I think of two very simple facts. First, hereditary Peers who are sitting in this House are in no se...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c470-1 (Link to this contribution) I hope I may be allowed to explain shortly but clearly why I disagree that this clause should remain...
Lord True | 731 c471 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships. If it is any consolation to the noble Viscount, Lord Montgo...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c476 (Link to this contribution) No, I am saying that a section of Peers in the broader sense will be prohibited from sitting in this...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c476 (Link to this contribution) 121: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““Name of the House On a date to be specified...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 731 c474 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understood that I had already answered. The Government prefer thoroughgoing reform and w...
Lord Wright of Richmond | 731 c477 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, earlier I expressed the view that nothing in this Bill pre-empts further discussion on the...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c461 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, makes a perfectly reasonable point. I am not sure that the a...
Lord Dubs | 731 c462 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one is judged all too often by the company one keeps. I want to make it clear that the rea...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 731 c462-3 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the grievance expressed by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Tref...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c462 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like the clause to remain in the Bill. I say that on a straight point of principle...
Lord Tyler | 731 c463-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Lords, Lord Elton and Lord Howarth of Newport. I do ...
Lord Elton | 731 c463 (Link to this contribution) My noble friends Lord Trefgarne and Lord Caithness have made points that resonate strongly with me a...
Lord Wright of Richmond | 731 c465 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, rightly makes the point that we are not here to discuss the Go...
Lord Elton | 731 c467 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the agreement was made by the Front Benches in the Chamber: it is all in Hansard. What was...
Lord Northbrook | 731 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway in his recollection of events. The deal...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 731 c466 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is concerned that the general public find various aspects of...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c467-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can remember the debate: I took part in it quite extensively. The agreement or promise w...
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein | 731 c467 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is on the amendment. I apologise for arriving late; I had a medical appointment, a...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c460 (Link to this contribution) The plain fact is that the Joint Select Committee, of which I have the honour to be a member, is con...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c458 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am persuaded by my own arguments. On the point of alleged discourtesy, we have a saying ...
Lord Cormack | 731 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may be possible to accuse the noble Lord, Lord Steel, of certain things but to accuse h...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 731 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should point out that this has already been done when the government Chief Whip moved a ...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 731 c461 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think, on the voices, that the Contents have it. Motion agreed. Clause 10 : Exclusion ...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 731 c460 (Link to this contribution) I was going to put the Question in any case. The Question is that the House do now resolve itself in...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c460 (Link to this contribution) But no doubt with the support of others as well. This is in the context of a major government Lords ...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c452 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not agree with the Motion proposed by my noble friend Lord Steel for different reason...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c451 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I find it difficult to recall that this Bill was first debated in this House four years ag...
Viscount Tenby | 731 c456 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare an historic interest. I was a member of the original group chaired by the late L...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c454-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I arrived here this morning expecting to debate Amendment 1 first. I then find that my nob...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c527 (Link to this contribution) I bet it will be because you have made sure that there are enough people on your side to get it thro...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c531-2 (Link to this contribution) In that case, the amendment is still in play and I would like to speak to it in the dying minutes of...
Lord Haskel | 731 c531 (Link to this contribution) I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion that the Question be now put is conside...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c501 (Link to this contribution) 136: Clause 17, page 6, line 24, at end insert— ““( ) Nothing in this Part shall apply to a Member w...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 731 c491 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree that we have to reduce the numbers in this House; I do not think putting an arbitr...
Lord Northbrook | 731 c493 (Link to this contribution) May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel, a question? As far as I am aware, only two Members have taken ...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c479-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I listened particular...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 731 c531 (Link to this contribution) Oh, Amendment 3. It says Amendment 2 on the annunciator.
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey | 731 c503-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I add my voice to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. I have found it simila...
Lord Swinfen | 731 c502 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not an expert on the Road Traffic Acts, but surely someone who drives unlicensed, uni...
Lord Selsdon | 731 c508 (Link to this contribution) I am not in favour of this at all, due to certain bad experiences in my life. The noble Lord, Lord M...
Lord Grenfell | 731 c493 (Link to this contribution) I have to challenge the noble Earl’s assertion that the number of committees is driven by the size o...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 731 c478 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that the term ““senate”” has a republican ring about it, and I am not sure that that ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 731 c460 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the Question be now put.
Earl of Caithness | 731 c481 (Link to this contribution) Could we have an answer to the question posed by my noble friend Lord Astor? That is quite relevant ...
Lord Elton | 731 c478 (Link to this contribution) I may well be wrong, because my Latin is rather out of date now, but I think that the root of the wo...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c478 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, will reflect on the word ““shenanigans””, which h...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c523 (Link to this contribution) I simply want to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes. If I heard him correctly, he was asking me ...
Lord Hughes of Woodside | 731 c521 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, while people mull over the various possibilities of what might happen, and without wishing...
Lord Higgins | 731 c521 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that a simple way to proceed is not to move Amendments 142 to 117, to deal with C...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 731 c521 (Link to this contribution) If that is the sense of the House, the appropriate procedure, as I have been informed by the Clerk, ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c523 (Link to this contribution) We can do it. If Members would stop talking, we could get on.
Lord Haskel | 731 c528 (Link to this contribution) I was obliged to call Amendment 1 but it was obvious that the Government Chief Whip wanted to say so...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c528 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly confused. I do not know whether the Deputy Chairman of Committees has called Amendment...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c528 (Link to this contribution) Can we hear the advice of the Government Chief Whip and proceed accordingly?
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c528 (Link to this contribution) Let me make it clear in response to the noble Earl that I will not move Amendment 163.
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c526-7 (Link to this contribution) I heard an interjection from behind me, but I am not sure who it was. It is not just up to us. As my...
Lord Avebury | 731 c526 (Link to this contribution) There are 16 of you out of 800.
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c526 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me just try something without being partial, because it is up to the House what it doe...
Lord Higgins | 731 c524 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may again suggest what I suggested previously. The easiest way to do this is tha...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c523-4 (Link to this contribution) I can give the noble Lord that assurance. The only changes that I foresee at Report would be those m...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 731 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the Question on Amendment 2 be now put.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 731 c530 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is my understanding that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, moved without debate Amendment...
Lord Northbrook | 731 c530 (Link to this contribution) The reason why the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, changed his thoughts is that I think the goal posts s...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c529 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have suddenly realised that the difficulty with that is that if we go to Report stage, o...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c528 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that we are now where we should be. I will not speak for all the other Members of ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) I accept that. Clause 1 agreed. Amendments 11 and 12 not moved. Clause 2 : Commission membership ...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) I should like to suggest a different procedure but in the same spirit as that suggested by my noble ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may make one further clarification. I would have hoped that we would withdraw all these cl...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) I would add merely that it was quite wrong for that Division to be called when every effort was bein...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there are five minutes left. If every amendment is called, it can be dealt with. That woul...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I completely concur with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and I look to the governme...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c531 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the Deputy Chairman has got it wrong. The noble Baroness has moved that the Question be ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 731 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I believe that the Motion that the Question be now put is not debatable.
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 3 withdrawn. Amendments 4 to 10 not moved. Debat...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) If it is removed, it cannot be debated on Report. Is that correct?
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c532 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I understand it, it would not be in the Bill and therefore would not be discussed on Re...
Lord Swinfen | 731 c504 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I believe it is because we have a voice and a vote in Parliament.
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c504 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps someone could enlighten me on the origin of all this. I assume that commoners vote...
Lord Wright of Richmond | 731 c504 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think it is also the fact that Members of the House of Commons are no longer Members of ...
Viscount Astor | 731 c503 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for one very simple reason: while canvassing at the p...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c503 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have often thought about this. It is an anomaly that dates back to when the Lords had th...
Lord Northbrook | 731 c503 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, on this point. First, we should have more powers on money Bil...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c502 (Link to this contribution) Since I have already undertaken to discuss the other matters with the Ministry of Justice, I am cert...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c502 (Link to this contribution) I am not trying to establish a precedent in this matter. My recollection is that the Road Traffic Ac...
Lord Dubs | 731 c503 (Link to this contribution) This amendment contains a very simple proposition. I think we are the only Members of a second Chamb...
Lord Dubs | 731 c502 (Link to this contribution) 137: After Clause 17, insert the following new Clause— ““Part 4A Voting at elections Voting at elect...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c501 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a serious amendment of a probing nature. My recollection is that some past legisla...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c501-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend behind me asked me earlier why there was a reference to a conviction for a...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c500-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench; that is certainly helpful to me....
Lord Lyell | 731 c500 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to intervene because my noble friend on the Front Bench is about to move on. He is trying...
Lord Norton of Louth | 731 c500 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, responds, nobody has really picked up the point about rehabil...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c500 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, nothing is different apart from not having a Government and an Opposition endeavouring to ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c499 (Link to this contribution) The principle behind Part 4 is simply that lawbreakers should not be lawmakers. That is the principl...
Viscount Astor | 731 c500 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before my noble friend Lord Caithness withdraws his amendment it might be for the convenie...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c499 (Link to this contribution) There may or may not be words of wisdom arriving. I remind the noble Earl that this is a Private Mem...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c499 (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend on the Front Bench give some examples of offences for which you would be penalis...
Lord Cormack | 731 c513 (Link to this contribution) It would be enacted. There are very many Bills that we enact, and there are provisions within them f...
Viscount Astor | 731 c513 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply, but there is presumably no reason why Part 3 cannot...
Viscount Astor | 731 c513 (Link to this contribution) I did realise that, and I apologise to the noble Lord for not getting my amendment exactly right, bu...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c513 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to be offensive to my noble friend Lord Astor, but the amendment would be incompetent,...
Viscount Astor | 731 c512 (Link to this contribution) 140: Clause 18, page 6, line 28, leave out subsection (1)
Earl of Caithness | 731 c514-8 (Link to this contribution) 142: After Clause 19, insert the following new Schedule— ““The House of Lords Appointments Commissio...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c510 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the point I made was that it was because of getting rid of that. If the noble Lord takes o...
Lord Norton of Louth | 731 c510 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I merely note in respect of manifestos at the last election that the three main party mani...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c511 (Link to this contribution) 139: Clause 18, page 6, line 28, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert— ““This Act shall not ...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, everyone agrees that there are some imperfections in certain circumstances, but they are n...
Lord Selsdon | 731 c509 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend talked as though we were going to be paid in future. This is quite sensiti...
Viscount Astor | 731 c507 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, while I sympathise with my noble friend, I have to say that if I thought that the Bill bro...
Lord Northbrook | 731 c510 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I supported my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway’s referendum amendment to the House o...
Lord Cormack | 731 c509 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my noble friend’s reaction to that proposition but that it what is in the Whit...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c505 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord says that he will go off and discuss it, but it has suddenly occurred to me that ther...
Lord Higgins | 731 c505 (Link to this contribution) On the suggestion that the amendment is withdrawn, my noble friend Lord Steel has made a very clear ...
Lord Dubs | 731 c505 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given the widespread support throughout the House, I do not honestly see that there is any...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c505 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment has been on the Order Paper for some considerable time. As regards the argu...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c505 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we could reach a compromise the other way around. I am quite happy to accept the amendment o...
Lord Dubs | 731 c505 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted with what the noble Lord has said. On that basis, I commend the amendment to the Hous...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c506 (Link to this contribution) 138: Before Clause 18, insert the following new Clause— ““Referendum (1) Her Majesty must by Order i...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 731 c522 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have 40 minutes to decide whether we wish to send this to Report stage or not. Some may...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c522-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before my noble friend Lord Steel, or the House, decides how to proceed, I should say that...
Lord Low of Dalston | 731 c523 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I move that the House resolves to proceed by the most expeditious and efficacious proc...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c523 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for reasons that have already been explained, the Companion states that we cannot do that....
Lord Haskel | 731 c519 (Link to this contribution) It may be helpful if I tell noble Lords that Amendment 163 is in the wrong place and that it should ...
Viscount Astor | 731 c519 (Link to this contribution) I quite understand my noble friend but I would just point out to him that in the Marshalled List, wh...
Lord Higgins | 731 c520 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is true, as has just been said by the Chairman, that Amendment 163 is in the wrong plac...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c518 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall move Amendment 142 very quickly because I need to apologise to the House. When I i...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c518 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a very good humoured debate throughout the day. It began perhaps a little frac...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c519 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend but while that is an outcome devoutly to be wished, unfortun...
Lord Haskel | 731 c518 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry. Can I say that Amendments 143 to 161 are not moved? Amendments 143 to 161 (to Amendment...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 731 c497 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may help us to make progress by simply adding that I very much agree with the no...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c497 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these are interesting amendments. Although I realise that this is a Private Member’s Bill,...
Viscount Astor | 731 c496 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has mentioned my amendment, which is not grouped with this one...
Lord Selsdon | 731 c489 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in reference to age, I was put on various committees at a very young age. I was told, ““My...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c489 (Link to this contribution) Okay, he cannot answer. I did not know that. The Minister has some responsibility for implementing t...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c493 (Link to this contribution) My point is that the all-party committee of the House under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, has...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c491-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again, I am grateful to all of your Lordships who have taken part in this debate. Let me s...
Lord Swinfen | 731 c491 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if we have an upper age limit for membership of this House we will be throwing away a terr...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 731 c491 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the debate has wandered a little from the amendment under consideration to the broader pro...
Lord Wright of Richmond | 731 c490 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there has been reference today to the escalation of numbers in this House in the summer. I...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c490 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend makes an important point about the problem of those who do not attend as well as abo...
Lord Norton of Louth | 731 c490 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I sometimes make the point that teaching students makes me realise that I am not that youn...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 731 c490 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at the age of 75, one would be too young even to be considered as a candidate member of th...
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein | 731 c490 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, said about age. He mentioned the Chinese....
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) I can answer that. In fact, what has been done internally in the House is not at all what the noble ...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c494 (Link to this contribution) 129: After Clause 14, insert the following new Clause— ““Right of retired Members to vote and stand ...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c494 (Link to this contribution) I agree with that but I just do not think that it will work. I cannot see a rush of Peers to take it...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c493 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I certainly bow to the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who has much greater experience of this ...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c495 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, anything for the convenience of the House but I have never before seen papers distributed....
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c495 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be for the convenience of the House if the staff distributed the new list, instead of u...
Viscount Astor | 731 c495 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend kindly gave me a copy of the groupings list. I should point out that my two Amendmen...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we now come to Part 4 of the Bill, which is headed: "““Conviction of serious criminal offe...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c495 (Link to this contribution) 130: Clause 15, page 6, line 14, leave out ““one”” and insert ““five””
Earl of Caithness | 731 c494-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise. I am absolutely certain that my noble friend Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market ...
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market | 731 c494 (Link to this contribution) The amendment says ““under section”” but there is no section. Therefore, it falls if Amendment 128 i...
Lord Colwyn | 731 c494 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in one briefing the two amendments are grouped together and in another they are separate. ...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c481 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would not be appropriate to pursue the matter further at this point but have we not ide...
Lord Hughes of Woodside | 731 c481 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, today has been disappointing for many reasons, not least because amendments have been with...
Lord Goodhart | 731 c480 (Link to this contribution) I should point out very briefly that Amendment 122 is listed in the same group as Amendment 119, whi...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c480 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is not going to move the amendment, I shall do so, as is I believe...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c479 (Link to this contribution) Everyone would retain their title, because it is an honour given to them. The change of name affects...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c482 (Link to this contribution) Strictly speaking: yes, but that will of course depend on the amendment being put in the first place...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c482 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is abusing procedure in a dangerous way. The noble Lord is saying that, should the Go...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c482 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the House decided earlier today to take amendments in a certain order: that is, Clauses 10...
Viscount Astor | 731 c484 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a small amendment—so small that even my noble friend Lord Jenkin will not be able ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c484 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Astor has moved his reasonable amendment in a very reasonable manner....
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 731 c483 (Link to this contribution) It may be helpful to read out paragraph 8.65 in the Companion: "““Each amendment on the marshalled l...
Lord Dubs | 731 c483 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to move the amendment. It is part of a series of amendments intended to remove titles fr...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c487 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, says that he does not want to do anything in an arbitrary mann...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c485 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, now that this wonderful reasonable atmosphere has taken over the Committee, I have no doub...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c485 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am happy to accept the amendment.
Earl of Caithness | 731 c485 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not envisage this. Even in my better moments, I had not thought that this was going ...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c485 (Link to this contribution) 128: After Clause 14, insert the following new Clause— ““Part 3A Retirement Retirement age A member ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c477-8 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may say to my noble friend Lord Caithness that he and I are in agreement on one issue. If ...
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein | 731 c478 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, I was very interested in the suggestion tha...
Lord Howe of Aberavon | 731 c478 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one very short reason for refraining from supporting this proposition is the fact that the...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 731 c471 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, said earlier that we do not understand procedures. Presumably he was p...
Lord True | 731 c472-3 (Link to this contribution) I note as a new Peer the pleasure that that gives to some, but having had that slightly disobliging ...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c473 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord mentions Lord Weatherill in support of his claim about what happened, but i...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c473 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Question before the House is that Clause 10 stand part of the Bill. If I may, I will r...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c474 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may reply to the debate on whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. My ...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c468 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could suggest to the noble Baroness that the by-elections were part of the deal agreed bet...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c469 (Link to this contribution) As a hereditary Peer, I do not have a grievance about anything and if I have to go, I have to go, bu...
Lord Cormack | 731 c476 (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend really suggesting to the House that the only legitimate Peers are hereditary Peer...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c476 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the name of the House is a hugely important issue. Now that the final ethnic cleansing of ...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c474 (Link to this contribution) Will my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire answer the question that I posed to him. Do the Front ...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 731 c477 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but I will not give way because I am going to sit down in a second. I do not think that t...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 731 c477 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I looked through the list of amendments that had been tabled earlier in the week, par...
Lord Cobbold | 731 c461 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was not expecting this brief amendment to come so early in the debate. It explains itsel...
Lord Cobbold | 731 c461 (Link to this contribution) 118: Clause 10, page 5, line 16, at end insert— ““(5) Nothing in this Part shall disqualify an hered...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c461 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for reasons that will now be self-evident to your Lordships, I do not agree that the claus...
Viscount Astor | 731 c461 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may ask my noble friend Lord Steel a question that is germane to the way in whic...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 731 c466 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I question whether the agreement made by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, in 1999 means...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 731 c465 (Link to this contribution) On the question of the agreement: an agreement is an agreement. I have supported that agreement on t...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 731 c466 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a question that is relevant to what was said. It was not an agreement for all time,...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 731 c468 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary British-Norwegian Group, I must correct what t...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c459 (Link to this contribution) That the House do now resolve itself into Committee. That the House do now resolve itself into Comm...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c460 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder if my noble friend really is concerned to proceed with the Bill, and to move the ...
Lord Elton | 731 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am a friend to this Bill. I rise briefly to say only that I am also a friend to the nobl...
Lord Dubs | 731 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am persuaded by the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Steel.
Lord Hughes of Woodside | 731 c452 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am disappointed to hear that the noble Lord seeks to withdraw Part 1 of the Bill. One of...
Lord Trefgarne | 731 c452-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. I agree that I did that and I will try not to do so again. ...
Lord Hughes of Woodside | 731 c452 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very interested in what the noble Lord has to say. Unfortunately, when he turned his ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 731 c451 (Link to this contribution) That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the House of Lords Reform Bil...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 731 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is about time that somebody else spoke in favour of the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and...
Bishop of Leicester | 731 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the position of this Bench has consistently been, over many years, that considerations of ...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 731 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is an excellent proposal from the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby: we should refer to the ...
Lord Wills | 731 c453 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand the concerns that have been expressed already today about the new approach of...
Earl of Erroll | 731 c453-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make a couple of comments on this. I had not really paid proper attention to thi...
Viscount Astor | 731 c453 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Steel says that he has withdrawn Clauses 1 to 9 but, of course, on th...
Earl of Caithness | 731 c456 (Link to this contribution) With respect, the noble Lord is wrong. We will deal with the appointments commission. You cannot not...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 731 c456 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I support the noble Lord, Lord Wills. Surely we must get on with this. It is ludicrous that...
Notes
Bill title changed at Report stage
Subjects
House of Lords Disqualification Hereditary peers House of Lords composition Referendums Peers Reform Appointments Commission
Legislation
House of Lords Reform Bill (HL) 2010-12
House of Lords (Amendment) Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk