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Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

We have had a useful debate following my opening consensual acceptance of amendments that were tabled in Committee. We have relived part of the debate in Committee, which I am sure has been of interest to other Members who have come into the Chamber for the discussion of later parts of the Bill. I shall respond briefly to some of the topics that were raised. The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) mentioned amendment No. 129, which would allow a court to give a second referral order to an offender on the recommendation of a youth offending team, probation officer or social worker. As he knows, the referral order operates on a restorative justice principle, with offenders being required to face up to their responsibility for their actions and to make redress to their victim. It is currently restricted to first-time offenders who plead guilty. In the Bill we are seeking to allow a referral order to be available to those who plead guilty on a second conviction, where they have not received a referral order previously. It is a step too far to broaden that out to a second referral order. The hon. Gentleman raised the matter in Committee. What we must do is address the offending behaviour of the young person. If they have not gained from the original referral order process, it is right that the court should consider other sentences. It is important that we retain the integrity of the referral order, which achieves the lowest reconviction rate of any juvenile court-awarded sentence—44 per cent. I do not wish to undermine that, and I cannot accept the amendments that the hon. Gentleman tabled. In his welcome for the new clauses and amendments that I tabled to deal with substance misuse, the hon. Gentleman mentioned funding. All youth offending teams are funded to provide substance misuse workers to support screening, early intervention and referral to specialist services. There is also funding via the National Treatment Agency pooled treatment budget, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. Funding is sufficient to meet the needs of the order. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the work of the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Hollobone) on volatile substance misuse. I am pleased that he did so. In a former life I was involved in dealing with individuals who engaged in volatile substance misuse, and I welcome the fact that the generic examination of substance misuse will cover all aspects of that. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), on behalf of himself and my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), proposed that we remove the antisocial behaviour order as an option for agencies to tackle antisocial behaviour if the person is under the age of 18, unless it is also proposed to make an order on an adult co-perpetrator. I know that my hon. Friends feel strongly about the matter. They know that the main purpose of an ASBO is to protect victims, many of whom are young persons. In addition, ASBOs, especially when used with individual support orders, have proved very beneficial in helping young people to tackle their antisocial behaviour. This is not about criminalising young people; I want to do quite the opposite. I want to ensure that young people, via the ASBO, have a last opportunity to mend their ways before entering the criminal justice system proper. Without ASBOs, that option would not be available to agencies tasked with protecting local communities. They are an important option available for tackling antisocial behaviour. I understand the reasons why the amendments were tabled, but I am not able to accept them today. Our approach has been commended by the National Audit Office, as well as by the Home Affairs Committee, the Audit Commission and the Youth Justice Board, and it is important to ensure that we retain that part of our armoury, while if possible limiting its use. Amendments Nos. 116 to 120 replicate those tabled in Committee by the hon. Members for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) and for Enfield, Southgate. We had a great deal of discussion on amendment No. 116, but I was not persuaded of its merits in Committee and I am not persuaded of its merits now. Amendments Nos. 206 and 209 will remove the power for a court to deal with a wilful and persistent breach of a youth rehabilitation order by imposing a youth rehabilitation order with intensive supervision and surveillance or custody. It is essential to preserve the credibility of the YRO as a robust and meaningful community sentence. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome referred to new clauses 40 and 42, which seek to place further restrictions on the use of custody. Again, although I tried to adopt a spirit of co-operation, I cannot accept them and do not believe that they are necessary. There are sufficient safeguards in the Bill on providing a YRO with intensive supervision and surveillance or intensive fostering requirements as alternatives to custody, and in section 152 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 there are provisions in respect of limiting the use of custody. For similar reasons, I am also unable to accept new clause 42, which would raise the custody threshold to an unacceptably high level that may put the public at significant risk. The hon. Gentleman also referred to amendments Nos. 210 and 213 in seeking to determine whether it would appropriate to extend the youth conditional caution to 10 to 15-year-olds. Again, there is a glimpse of light for him at the end of the tunnel on this matter, in that, as I explained in Committee, I have not ruled out considering extending conditional cautions to 10 to 15-year-olds. I want to look at the matter in more detail so I am unable to bring forward such proposals at the moment, but I hope that he will take me at my word when I say that we are looking at that in a serious and effective way. The hon. Gentleman also referred to amendments Nos. l96 to 200, which focused on legal representation for young people. I understand that a number of safeguards may already be in place to ensure that a youth will be granted publicly funded representation where necessary. I do not wish to extend the scope because it would damage and sideline the interest of justice test under the Access to Justice Act 1999. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall my letter to him of 27 October, which was a copy of a letter to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) who was a Chairman of the Committee, in which I said that since 2 October 2006, defendants appearing before magistrates and youth courts have also been required to pass a financial eligibility test in order to qualify for publicly funded representation. I also stressed that the passporting provisions on age would be extended from 1 November 2007, which means that all defendants under the age of 18 will now be exempt from the means test. I hope that that helped the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome then and today. I have tried to answer some of the brief points in the discussion. I hope that the Government's new clauses and amendments will be accepted and that hon. Members will understand the points that I have made in response to their concerns. Question put and agreed to. Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.