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Postal Services Bill [HL]

I thank my noble friend for that very informative response to this short debate. He started by saying that it was interesting; it was certainly interesting to me once again to see that the willingness to talk about consultation and transparency is there in the Minister’s mind. I welcome that. It is another thing not to see that in the Bill. It is said that the Government are not proposing any changes at the moment. We cannot live on the basis that it will always be "at the moment", because at a different moment different people will be administering different things. That is why throughout these debates I have said there is a need for trust, consultation and accountability so that people can understand the situation. There is not very much wrong with the first part of the clause. My noble friend is saying that there is no need to require the consent of the trustees. Over the years, consent in pension schemes has been as my noble friend Lord Whitty described; when a change is proposed, whether on an investment policy, the benefits structure or the administration of the scheme, there has been consultation. As I said at the time of the first deficit of £1.18 billion in the scheme in 1973, which was accumulated after only four years of the scheme, common sense prevailed and the parties came to an agreement. All that this amendment says is you have to have the consent of the trustees. They are not out to try to hoodwink the employer or the Government; they represent the members. The trustees are looking after members’ money and investing on their behalf. It could be agued that some of the trustees may have not done that very well in the past few years, but I have explained time and time again that that was a direct result of the policies of former Governments and the present Government in allowing that almost obscene pensions holiday to take place, whereby the money accumulated from members’ contributions, not from the employer. At the same time money was pumped into the Exchequer from the external finance limit. So you could say that in the past the trustees may not have done their job as well as they might have done. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, asked me not to test the opinion of the Committee this evening. I got the impression that he may want to bring something back to make this issue clearer. As I have said—now for the third time—if we do not get on the face of the Bill a clear and concise commitment to consultation, I shall, without any shadow of a doubt, support any amendment that states that there should be consultation. I know that consultation is provided for in other parts of the Bill, but when people read legislation, they want to see it wherever it is necessary. My amendment states that it should occur on this matter.