Parliamentary Search

Debate on bill on Friday, 21 October 2005, in the House of Commons, led by Clare Short. The answering member was Geoffrey Hoon.

Armed Forces (Parliamentary Approval for Participation in Armed Conflict) Bill

Armed Forces (Parliamentary Approval For Participation In Armed Conflict) Bill .Second reading debate. Closure motion agreed to on division (91 to 12). Deputy speaker declared that Question not decided in the affirmative because it was not supported by the majority prescribed by Standing Order No 37. Debate adjourned.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
437 c1085-162 
Session
2005-06
Department
Leader of the House of Commons
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Closure motions
Private members' bills proceedings
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 437 c1113 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to rethink what he has just said and rephrase it.
Clare Short | 437 c1085-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. There are two important reasons why this B...
Show all contributions (269)
Clare Short | 437 c1086 (Link to this contribution) No, the hon. Gentleman is not correct. He is right in the case of the Korean war and the 1991 Gulf w...
James Gray | 437 c1086 (Link to this contribution) I think that the right hon. Lady is slightly incorrect. As for Attlee and the Korean war, the votes ...
Clare Short | 437 c1087 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed; that is a matter of record, but the argument that I am putting this morning is that we ...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1087 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Clare Short | 437 c1087 (Link to this contribution) No, I will get on a little, if I may. Politicians are increasingly held in contempt and a declining...
Paul Keetch | 437 c1087-8 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady is giving some very good constitutional reasons for the proposed power, but is n...
Clare Short | 437 c1088 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. I am afraid that the morale of the armed forces remains dented, because...
Lee Scott | 437 c1088 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Lady agree that it should be the right of the democratically elected representat...
Clare Short | 437 c1088 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman, both for democratic reasons and for the quality of the d...
Tony Lloyd | 437 c1086 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the history is even more complicated? She and I were both membe...
David Kidney | 437 c1087 (Link to this contribution) Would my right hon. Friend at least give credit to those who did listen to all those people who marc...
Clare Short | 437 c1086-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. It is for the Prime Minister to decide whether to bring the issue before Pa...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Clare Short | 437 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Certainly. I am coming to that argument shortly.
David Wright | 437 c1089 (Link to this contribution) I have great sympathy with the Bill in principle, but there are some problems with it, and perhaps m...
Paul Keetch | 437 c1088 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way on that point?
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1161 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting observation. However, I have listened to a great number of speeches in the co...
Martin Horwood | 437 c1161-2 (Link to this contribution) As a new Member of this place, I find some of its procedures confusing, but I have found today’s bem...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1162 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman did not mean to imply that I am not as interested in democratic pr...
Jeremy Corbyn | 437 c1162 (Link to this contribution) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put, but Mr. Deputy Speaker withheld...
Jeremy Corbyn | 437 c1160 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is being led into talking about the role of special forces and obviously does not want ...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1160-1 (Link to this contribution) I was using the illustration, as have other Members, in the context of this particular Bill, which h...
Jeremy Corbyn | 437 c1161 (Link to this contribution) Is there any possibility that the Minister will be able to conclude his remarks before 2.30 pm so th...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1162 (Link to this contribution) The question of accountability has run through the debate. I accept that it is important that the Go...
Eric Forth | 437 c1158 (Link to this contribution) I am shocked by what the Leader of the House has just said. As he knows, we legislate on 13 Fridays ...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1158-9 (Link to this contribution) I know that the right hon. Gentleman strongly supports this important proposition—as a member of the...
Jeremy Corbyn | 437 c1159 (Link to this contribution) The Leader of the House is making a very interesting point. Will he help us by saying where sending ...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1159 (Link to this contribution) That is not my point and I do not know whether my hon. Friend has deliberately misunderstood me. I w...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1159 (Link to this contribution) We have already discussed the deployment of special forces. Does my right hon. Friend agree that his...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1159 (Link to this contribution) The Government and Parliament have always been circumspect about the deployment of special forces. T...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1160 (Link to this contribution) I have studiously refrained from referring precisely to what they do or do not do. I have used them ...
Clare Short | 437 c1160 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) gave the impression that special forces roam arou...
Paul Keetch | 437 c1159-60 (Link to this contribution) I had an inkling that the Leader of the House would raise this matter, because he was kind enough to...
Richard Burden | 437 c1155 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend therefore explain what is wrong with the United States’ War Powers Act?
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1155-6 (Link to this contribution) I had intended to deal with my hon. Friend’s point in a moment because it was raised during the deba...
Clare Short | 437 c1156 (Link to this contribution) rose in her place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1157 (Link to this contribution) Before our interruption, we were discussing Executive powers in constitutions. I know that hon. Memb...
David Wright | 437 c1157 (Link to this contribution) This is particularly interesting because clearly the Netherlands has a strong partnership with the R...
Speaker | 437 c1158 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman. This is a Second Reading debate and there a...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1157-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It has certainly been my privilege on a number of occasions to witn...
Adam Price | 437 c1158 (Link to this contribution) At the core of this debate is public trust in the democratic process. What does the right hon. Gentl...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1158 (Link to this contribution) Both the Netherlands and the United Kingdom have the same treaty obligations for NATO deployments, a...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1158 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should be careful about his choice of language. There has been no back-door parli...
Jeremy Corbyn | 437 c1155 (Link to this contribution) : I am interested in the Leader of the House’s speech. Why does he not say what is really behind his...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1155 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point because it is precisely what I am going to de...
Lord Grayling | 437 c1152 (Link to this contribution) I refer the right hon. Lady to my earlier comments. If we go down the road of wrapping up our nation...
Lord Grayling | 437 c1152 (Link to this contribution) I am about to conclude my remarks so that the Leader of the House can speak, so I cannot give way. ...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1152-5 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Short) on her success...
Elfyn Llwyd | 437 c1151 (Link to this contribution) : Can the hon. Gentleman explain why his party officially supported a motion in my name and that of ...
Lord Grayling | 437 c1150-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman rather anticipates my remarks and is putting words into my mouth before I have ut...
Clare Short | 437 c1151-2 (Link to this contribution) I presume that the hon. Gentleman wants us to continue to be bound by international law. If Parliame...
Lord Grayling | 437 c1151 (Link to this contribution) I am certain that there will be individual cases where it may be sensible to scrutinise legal advice...
David Heath | 437 c1149-50 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is clearly in the early stages of a thoughtful speech, but his indication is that...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1148-9 (Link to this contribution) It is because I am a man of progress that I recognise that the Bill imposes so many constraints on t...
Lord Grayling | 437 c1149 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore). We were not denied his Friday thoug...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1148 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. There is no obligation on the Government to come back should the duration o...
Jeremy Corbyn | 437 c1148 (Link to this contribution) : That is a very good argument for reform of the House of Lords to make it a more democratic establi...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1147 (Link to this contribution) In that case, what is the point of the Bill? The whole point of the Bill is to ensure that Parliamen...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1147-8 (Link to this contribution) : Is not it equally absurd that the conditions for military intervention, laid down under the Bill, ...
David Howarth | 437 c1147 (Link to this contribution) : I am reading clause 2, as the hon. Gentleman must be, and I cannot see any obligation under it to ...
Clare Short | 437 c1146 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made the Srebrenica point a number of times, and I have not read the full rep...
David Wright | 437 c1144 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will recall that, in the first Gulf war, SAS troops were deployed in Iraq to intercep...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1144-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. Let us suppose that Saddam Hussein was preparing to use a chemical weapon o...
Jeremy Corbyn | 437 c1145 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting argument. On that basis, any country that feels under threat from any other c...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1145 (Link to this contribution) Certainly not. It is a recipe for the reality of modern armed conflict. Special forces exist and hav...
Paul Keetch | 437 c1145 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that no Member of the House would want our special forces to be made redundant, but this m...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1145-6 (Link to this contribution) That is entirely the point. The next argument, which I was coming on to, involves the definition of ...
Colin Challen | 437 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening with interest—all this is indeed very interesting—but my hon. Friend has not r...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that that consideration is relevant to our debate today. We are considering the quest...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1144 (Link to this contribution) I take issue with the hon. Gentleman on that. Clause 2(b) provides for presenting"““the legal author...
Elfyn Llwyd | 437 c1144 (Link to this contribution) One difference is that we would have seen the full opinion of the Attorney-General. I gather from ma...
Peter Soulsby | 437 c1139-40 (Link to this contribution) It is significant that, with a couple of notable eccentric exceptions, the majority of Members who h...
Siobhain McDonagh | 437 c1140-2 (Link to this contribution) I feel very uncomfortable about the Bill. I make no great claims for myself as a lawyer or a constit...
David Wright | 437 c1138 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept the principle that it is legitimate for our country to deploy troops as a...
Jon Trickett | 437 c1138-9 (Link to this contribution) I entirely accept that that may be the case, but, as we now know, it was not the case at the time be...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1143-4 (Link to this contribution) My heart is very much behind the sentiments of the Bill but my head tells me that it is an unworkabl...
David Howarth | 437 c1144 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman began by saying that the Bill would have all sorts of terrible consequences. Now ...
Siobhain McDonagh | 437 c1142-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has said a great deal, and I want to give other hon. Members an opportunity to jo...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1144 (Link to this contribution) If the Bill had been in force at the time of the Iraq war, it would have made no difference. I shall...
Jon Trickett | 437 c1138 (Link to this contribution) I voted for the rebel amendment, but many hon. Members did not vote for it because they took serious...
James Gray | 437 c1137-8 (Link to this contribution) The point is that on 25 November an amendment to the Government motion was tabled by Labour Back Ben...
Jon Trickett | 437 c1136-7 (Link to this contribution) Those of us who believe that the Bill is correct should be happy with the debate so far. With one po...
John Barrett | 437 c1135-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is exactly right. We must try to increase public trust in elected representatives an...
Paul Keetch | 437 c1135 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is touching on an important point. There will be a time when a Prime Minister will co...
John Barrett | 437 c1136 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the hon. Gentleman, that is the most bizarre argument against the Bill that we have ...
James Gray | 437 c1136 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to labour this point, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that the reason why people dis...
John Barrett | 437 c1134-5 (Link to this contribution) That is a vacuous point. Several hon. Members gave examples of speaking to service personnel in thei...
Eric Joyce | 437 c1134 (Link to this contribution) On the benefit to service personnel, if we were to make a retrospective agreement or legislation tha...
John Barrett | 437 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I simply disagree with the point that the hon. Gentleman makes. Servicemen and women would prefer t...
Eric Joyce | 437 c1135 (Link to this contribution) My point is that troops could be carrying out action at a time at which it would not be legal. Is th...
John Barrett | 437 c1134 (Link to this contribution) I am not suggesting that at all. It is obvious that, when refuelling and other stops on the way to t...
David Wright | 437 c1134 (Link to this contribution) How would the hon. Gentleman respond to the point about the geographical context that I made in an e...
John Barrett | 437 c1134 (Link to this contribution) I agree that it is vital to be specific, but I refer back to my intervention on the hon. Member for ...
Adam Price | 437 c1134 (Link to this contribution) Is not one reason for being specific in parliamentary resolutions precisely to avoid the kind of mis...
John Barrett | 437 c1133-4 (Link to this contribution) Indeed it is. The details can be considered in Committee, but I want to mention one of them: the ex...
David Heath | 437 c1133 (Link to this contribution) And it is the Eton of the north.
John Barrett | 437 c1133 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Short) on bringing this well th...
James Gray | 437 c1132 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the broad principle that the distrust and disaffection in the pol...
Lord Khan of Tooting | 437 c1132 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I draw his attention to clause 10, dealing with interpretatio...
James Gray | 437 c1111 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman makes an interesting point. Of course that is the precise impli...
Clare Short | 437 c1109 (Link to this contribution) Some people took the view that containment was working and there should not be war at any price. Man...
James Gray | 437 c1109 (Link to this contribution) I fear that I fail to understand some parts of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, but I shall draw a blin...
David Heath | 437 c1109 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman suggested that those of us who spoke earlier in the debate supported the Bill bec...
James Gray | 437 c1109 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is not quite right. The debate on 25 November 2002 was indeed in support of UN re...
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 437 c1111 (Link to this contribution) I was following the hon. Gentleman’s argument before the last intervention. Am I to understand that ...
James Gray | 437 c1111 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about our deployment in Kosovo, which is particularly relevant...
Tony Lloyd | 437 c1110-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an intelligent speech, although I profoundly disagree with his conclusi...
James Gray | 437 c1109-10 (Link to this contribution) I am sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you would pick me up quickly if I allowed the debate to become...
James Gray | 437 c1111-2 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will forgive me, but I am seeking to answer his poi...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1114-5 (Link to this contribution) I rise perhaps a little like a lion in a den of Daniels, but nevertheless hope that as I speak again...
James Gray | 437 c1112 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady might be guilty of reductio ad absurdum—if she is familiar with that phrase. I d...
Clare Short | 437 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to every word that the hon. Gentleman has said, but the logic of his argument is tha...
James Gray | 437 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will forgive me, but I am trying to make progress. ...
James Gray | 437 c1113 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman makes the same point. He and I come from the same school—Hillhe...
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 437 c1112-3 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I cannot guarantee that, and the hon. Gentleman will understand, as an occasional P...
James Gray | 437 c1113-4 (Link to this contribution) As I said the word, I knew that I was out of order, so I shall happily rephrase my comment. We were...
Richard Ottaway | 437 c1115 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talks about changing circumstances, but is it not the case that future wars are m...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1115-6 (Link to this contribution) The intelligence to which the hon. Gentleman refers is not only that which existed in 2003, but that...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1116-7 (Link to this contribution) It is interesting to hear Labour Members suggest that we adopt an American model. Every country is d...
Tony Lloyd | 437 c1116 (Link to this contribution) : If memory serves, in the overwhelming majority of military actions in which the nation has been in...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I could not have put it better myself. In all recent conflicts in which the United Kingdom has been...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Short). If I constru...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I accept that defensive action may be taken as my right hon. Friend describes, but there may be situ...
Clare Short | 437 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that my hon. Friend is misinformed, as there is nothing in the Bill that would prevent o...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I am coming on to that point, but mission creep is almost inevitable under the Bill because of the w...
Angela C Smith | 437 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech. Will he comment on what would occur if peacekeeping or peace-...
Tim Farron | 437 c1117 (Link to this contribution) I understand the challenges that would face Members if they had to hold the Executive to account in ...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1118 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure of the point that my hon. Friend is making. I do not think that the Bill would p...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1118 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to draw my remarks to a close; plenty of other people want to speak. Every time that tro...
Richard Ottaway | 437 c1118 (Link to this contribution) How would the hon. Gentleman feel if the evidence was made available to the Intelligence and Securit...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1117-8 (Link to this contribution) To be gentle to the hon. Gentleman, that is a parody of my argument. Ministers by definition have ac...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1118 (Link to this contribution) Intelligence is often gathered by special forces deployed well in advance. How would the Bill apply ...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1118 (Link to this contribution) That should certainly be considered and discussed. United Nations Security Council resolutions are ...
Greg Mulholland | 437 c1119-20 (Link to this contribution) May I finish my assault? I will then let the hon. Gentleman respond to all my points. That would be ...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1120 (Link to this contribution) Let me correct the record of what the hon. Gentleman said I said but patently did not. I said that t...
Greg Mulholland | 437 c1120 (Link to this contribution) I inferred something else from the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, and if he reads Hansard he may see why ...
Greg Mulholland | 437 c1120-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and I probably have different views about what the House should and should not co...
Angela C Smith | 437 c1121 (Link to this contribution) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Clare Short | 437 c1119 (Link to this contribution) Just for the record, there was a UN operation in Rwanda, and the UK position at the Security Council...
Greg Mulholland | 437 c1119 (Link to this contribution) Unlike the hon. Member for High Peak (Tom Levitt), I welcome the Bill; in fact I returned to the Hou...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1119 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Greg Mulholland | 437 c1119 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Lady for her comment.
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1123-4 (Link to this contribution) Clause 8 covers that point, and the conditions that action must be taken"““following a lawful comman...
Lord Khan of Tooting | 437 c1124 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that if there were a situation in which our troops had to act illegally for opera...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1123 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend’s point, and it is perfectly valid because it is mentioned in the Bill. ...
Meg Hillier | 437 c1123 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend outline his thoughts about the definition of self-defence? In an international e...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I am wary of going too far down the retrospective line. Clause 4 covers retrospection when the Execu...
Greg Mulholland | 437 c1121 (Link to this contribution) No. I am about to conclude. We have all heard of the coalition of the willing. Given that there are...
David Wright | 437 c1123 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will recall that I joined him in the Lobby against the war in Iraq, but I am concerne...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1122-3 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman would acknowledge that the majority of Members who have taken part i...
James Gray | 437 c1122 (Link to this contribution) I spoke against substantive votes on going to war.
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1121-2 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to take part in the debate and to support my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingha...
Clare Short | 437 c1124-5 (Link to this contribution) The situation that the Leader of the House posits—a peacekeeping operation where things deteriorated...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1125 (Link to this contribution) I think that we are getting into areas that should be dealt with in Committee. Members have raised ...
David Wright | 437 c1125 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend might like to reflect on what would have happened when we sank the Belgrano. An exclu...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1125 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point. If I remember correctly, the Belgrano was steaming away from the Falkl...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to think of an example of where that would apply.
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1124 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises an interesting problem. When a situation is deteriorating, which is not uncomm...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1124 (Link to this contribution) Is not there then all the more reason that before sending troops into the situation there is discuss...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I will give my hon. Friend an example. The Dutch troops in Srebrenica were not prepared to defend th...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1124 (Link to this contribution) If the armed conflict itself is unlawful, I do not see that there is any way that one can give prote...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1124 (Link to this contribution) Clause 8 does not say that—it says that people may defend themselves, but only if the conditions tha...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1126 (Link to this contribution) Let us suppose that the Prime Minister’s report mentioned a specific geographical area or, perhaps m...
Gordon Prentice | 437 c1126 (Link to this contribution) Is not it a fundamental part of our constitution that parliamentary proceedings cannot be challenged...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1126 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon.
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1126 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend suggest that nothing that happens in this place can be challenged in court...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1126 (Link to this contribution) Let me give an example of how it would make a fundamental difference. The Bill could be subject to l...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1125-6 (Link to this contribution) The Bill makes it clear that the Prime Minister would make available"““such information as he consid...
Greg Hands | 437 c1125 (Link to this contribution) I should like to explore this a little further. The Bill says:"““the Prime Minister shall lay before...
Mike Weir | 437 c1128 (Link to this contribution) On behalf of the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru, I first congratulate the right hon. Member...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1127-8 (Link to this contribution) I take the point, Madam Deputy Speaker, but may I say that there have been times when I have listene...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1126 (Link to this contribution) It is ludicrous to suggest that such a report would specify a time limit and that there would be a c...
David Lepper | 437 c1126-7 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the sort of points that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House ...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1127 (Link to this contribution) I do not object to that and, I am sure, neither does my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham,...
Jon Trickett | 437 c1127 (Link to this contribution) : On that very point, less than 48 hours ago I was approached by a member of the Government who aske...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1127 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely the logic of this argument and of trying to pretend that if there are problems wit...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1127 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has a reputation in the House for independent thinking. On how many occasions when th...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1127 (Link to this contribution) I must say that I have not kept a running count—
Speaker | 437 c1127 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps we can now get back to debating the Bill, rather than what the Whips may or may not b...
David Wright | 437 c1132 (Link to this contribution) : Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to think about other areas, such as our commitment to fello...
Mike Weir | 437 c1129 (Link to this contribution) That point does not make a great deal of difference. Ultimately, either the President or the Prime M...
John Barrett | 437 c1129 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that when a war is based on intelligence, time for consideration and...
Mike Weir | 437 c1129 (Link to this contribution) The Leader of the House is correct. There is a great deal of dispute as to the constitutionality of ...
James Gray | 437 c1129 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is repeating a point made earlier in the debate about the difference between the ...
Lord Khan of Tooting | 437 c1131-2 (Link to this contribution) I will later, but I want to make some progress first. I do not necessarily see the Iraq debates and...
Mike Weir | 437 c1129-30 (Link to this contribution) I agree. Obviously, if the United Kingdom or any part of it were under attack, action would be taken...
Lord Khan of Tooting | 437 c1130-1 (Link to this contribution) I rise with some nervousness following the reference by my hon. Friend the. Member for Newport, West...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1128-9 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will want to give the House the full picture on the War Powers Act...
Clare Short | 437 c1092 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. Those who say that the Bill is not practical and that the US is our great r...
Clare Short | 437 c1091 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman that having a vote before any troops are deployed would allow the wh...
John Barrett | 437 c1091 (Link to this contribution) On parliamentary democracy, does the right hon. Lady agree that the backing of Parliament would help...
Clare Short | 437 c1091-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Neo-conservatives in the United States, who now have some influence...
Lord Khan of Tooting | 437 c1092 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend aware that the USA passed the war powers resolution in 1973 because of those...
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 437 c1090-1 (Link to this contribution) On the legal case for war, does the right hon. Lady anticipate that, before the decision was taken b...
Clare Short | 437 c1090 (Link to this contribution) If we are allowed to consider this important Bill in Committee, it can be amended if necessary so th...
John Hemming | 437 c1091 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Lady agree that one of the critical points about the Bill is that the considerat...
Clare Short | 437 c1091 (Link to this contribution) One of the very troubling issues about the route to war is the way in which the longer legal opinion...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1090 (Link to this contribution) : Clause 2(c) would require the Prime Minister to come to the House with information about the ““geo...
David Heath | 437 c1094-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman asks why that vote did not fit my requirements, but I have to say that in large p...
Paul Keetch | 437 c1095 (Link to this contribution) At some stage in the future, a Prime Minister will need to return to this House wanting to deploy ar...
David Heath | 437 c1094 (Link to this contribution) It might have more sensible for the hon. Gentleman to allow me to make my speech instead of interven...
Eric Joyce | 437 c1094 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly puzzled by more than one dimension of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but one in partic...
James Gray | 437 c1094 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman implies that he supports the Bill. There were three substantive votes on the matt...
David Heath | 437 c1093-4 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Short) on introducing this enor...
Clare Short | 437 c1093 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. I have read in the press—I do not know about it personall...
Elfyn Llwyd | 437 c1093 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady says that we owe this measure to the armed forces. I was in Iraq in early March ...
Clare Short | 437 c1092-3 (Link to this contribution) The issue behind the Bill is wider than Iraq, but we have all had recent experience of the route to ...
David Burrowes | 437 c1092 (Link to this contribution) Although I respect the right hon. Lady’s concerns about parliamentary approval and proper scrutiny, ...
Robert Smith | 437 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Some hon. Members, having voted for the war and encouraged it—in fact, having egged on the Governmen...
Clare Short | 437 c1089 (Link to this contribution) No. Let me get on a bit. I submit that the democratic argument is overwhelmingly strong and that it...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1090 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has made great play about the importance of democracy and the right of the elec...
Clare Short | 437 c1090 (Link to this contribution) I think that my hon. Friend will agree that we are committed as a party and as a Government to refor...
Elfyn Llwyd | 437 c1100 (Link to this contribution) May I support the hon. Gentleman’s argument by saying that, allegedly, according to the Government, ...
Jon Trickett | 437 c1101 (Link to this contribution) Neither of the two motions on 25 November 2002 and 26 February 2003 refers to deployment or armed co...
Roger Gale | 437 c1101-3 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the hon. Gentleman, what matters is how and when Parliament, in both its Houses, is ...
Paul Flynn | 437 c1103-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale). I agree with almost every wo...
Tony Lloyd | 437 c1104 (Link to this contribution) : I think my hon. Friend is about to talk about the second Iraq war, but earlier he mentioned the fi...
Gordon Prentice | 437 c1100 (Link to this contribution) That is a very powerful point. There are many good reasons for trying to get this Bill into Committe...
Roger Gale | 437 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) May I echo immediately the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice)—this is...
James Gray | 437 c1101 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to pick me up in that troops were of course deployed in Kuwait prior to 18 M...
Roger Gale | 437 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I stand mildly, but only mildly, corrected, because the fact is, as the right hon. Lady pointed out ...
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 437 c1104 (Link to this contribution) : May I take the hon. Gentleman back to the first Gulf war? He will recall that the military action ...
James Gray | 437 c1108-9 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment, but I want to answer the point made earlier by the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jo...
Jon Trickett | 437 c1109 (Link to this contribution) The debate on 25 November was on a motion that said that the Security Council should meet further to...
James Gray | 437 c1108 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point in support of my argument. At the time, the ships were steamin...
David Howarth | 437 c1108 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
James Gray | 437 c1106-7 (Link to this contribution) I have in common with all the speakers in the debate so far a deep, principled and fundamental unhap...
Paul Keetch | 437 c1107-8 (Link to this contribution) I know of the hon. Gentleman’s interest in the subject. Does he remember the vote taken on 10 June 1...
Clare Short | 437 c1105 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I agree with that. It is true that the American plans for the war were well advan...
Paul Flynn | 437 c1105-6 (Link to this contribution) I take that point, but my right hon. Friend is aware that the document ““Project for the New America...
David Heath | 437 c1096-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but I shall not take a further intervention on that point. There are questions about def...
Gordon Prentice | 437 c1097-9 (Link to this contribution) I promise not to take long, but I want to put on the record my thanks to the Member for Birmingham, ...
David Heath | 437 c1095-6 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The genie is out of the bottle now that the precedent has been...
John Hemming | 437 c1096 (Link to this contribution) : Does my hon. Friend agree that, in commitment to the rule of law, Parliament is responsible for en...
David Heath | 437 c1096 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my hon. Friend says but I am not sure that that is a conclusion that one can necessarily...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1096 (Link to this contribution) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 437 c1096 (Link to this contribution) I have taken many interventions but I shall take one more.
Tom Levitt | 437 c1096 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being incredibly generous, as he says. When I intervened on my right hon. Fri...
David Heath | 437 c1096 (Link to this contribution) I must say to the hon. Gentleman, in all gentleness, that that is a rather preposterous suggestion. ...
Gordon Prentice | 437 c1100 (Link to this contribution) I am coming on to the point about a convention.—[Interruption.] I am answering the Member’s point. I...
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1099-100 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has just quoted Lord Hurd with approval, saying that there should be a convention tha...
Speaker | 437 c1099 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not doubt that there is a relationship, but what I would like to happen now is the hon. ...
Gordon Prentice | 437 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I would like to speak to what the Public Administration Committee said about the prerogative powers....
Speaker | 437 c1099 (Link to this contribution) Order. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would relate his comments to the content of the Bill.
Gordon Prentice | 437 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I am coming on to that. I just want to say that I asked the current Cabinet Secretary whether the de...
Eric Joyce | 437 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to intervene and I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. The point I was making is that Lo...
Gordon Prentice | 437 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to get away from all this tribal stuff.—[Laughter.] I find it very difficult, but I am d...
Eric Joyce | 437 c1099 (Link to this contribution) : When there is a Labour Government.
Geoffrey Hoon | 437 c1160 (Link to this contribution) I always admired the hon. Gentleman’s ability to speak on defence matters on behalf of the Liberal D...
Philip Davies | 437 c1120 (Link to this contribution) I share the hon. Gentleman’s admiration for the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Sh...
Andrew Dismore | 437 c1146-7 (Link to this contribution) That presages my arguments under clause 8. I am not sure that that was necessarily the case. As I re...
James Gray | 437 c1117 (Link to this contribution) The difference is that the President of the United States is not answerable to Congress, so if he to...
Clare Short | 437 c1089-90 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right that many hon. Members who voted for the war, having seen many documents...
Clare Short | 437 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution) No, I shall get on. I wanted to welcome the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Scott) to the House. ...
Paul Flynn | 437 c1104 (Link to this contribution) We have never been told how many casualties there were, but the number is believed to be 200,000. I...
Paul Flynn | 437 c1104-5 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. A case was made based on international law and th...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c1126 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend appears to suggest that it is currently impossible for legal proceedings to be ...
Lord Khan of Tooting | 437 c1132-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not agree at all. The public question the role of the House and they question what the peop...
Tom Levitt | 437 c1117 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. The President is the Head of State and the Prime Minister is not, as the hon. Gentleman poin...
James Gray | 437 c1131 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Subjects
Accountability Armed forces Armed conflict Deployment Democracy Prime Minister Parliamentary scrutiny Treaties Royal prerogative
Legislation
Armed Forces (Parliamentary Approval for Participation in Armed Conflict) Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk