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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 11 July 2006, in the House of Lords.

Police and Justice Bill

Police and Justice Bill. Lords Committee stage, fourth day, concluded. Clauses 28-52 agreed to, Clauses 37,39,40,42 and 52 as amended. Schedules 9-15 agreed to, Schedules 14 and 15 as amended. New clauses considered. Bill reported with amendments (HL Bill 139 2005-06). (Part 1 of 2)

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
684 c594-659 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Police and Justice Bill
Tuesday, 11 July 2006
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c594 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c598 (Link to this contribution) I warmly support the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig. As she said, it is absolu...
Show all contributions (121)
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c598-9 (Link to this contribution) I add my voice in support of the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, has made a very practica...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c596-7 (Link to this contribution) I fully understand that concern has previously been expressed about the apparent breadth of the cons...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c595-6 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Henig and Lady Harris of Richmond. I s...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c595 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig. As she has so clearly outlined, t...
Baroness Henig | 684 c594-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 140: Page 27, line 41, leave out subsection (3). The noble Baroness said: Ame...
Baroness Henig | 684 c597-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 143: Page 104, line 4, at end insert- ““( ) In exercising his functions to ins...
Baroness Henig | 684 c597 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for his explanation and for the move that he has made on Amendment No. 145. ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c597 (Link to this contribution) I cannot immediately envisage circumstances that would disturb the arrangement which the noble Lord ...
Lord Dholakia | 684 c597 (Link to this contribution) I have a particular interest in this matter because, when HMI used to carry out inspections, it was ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c601 (Link to this contribution) I do not rule out the involvement of an element of peer review. I sought to make clear that we do no...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c600 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. Where are the special people who know about polic...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c600 (Link to this contribution) At the outset I made the point that the inspectorate may require the importation of professional jud...
Lord Dholakia | 684 c600 (Link to this contribution) The Minister talked about warmth at the start of his response to this amendment. If the inspectorate...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c600 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord. There is nothing wrong with the inspectorate taking advice from a wide ...
Lord Dholakia | 684 c599 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, and my noble friend Lady Harris of Ri...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c599-600 (Link to this contribution) I shall prefigure my comments by saying that there may be some warmth in them, but, ultimately, I am...
Baroness Henig | 684 c601 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that elucidation. No doubt we will want to discuss the issue in a more i...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c603 (Link to this contribution) With his long experience as a Home Office Minister, I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, und...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c603 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 147 not move...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c603-4 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 171A: Page 31, line 4, at end insert- ““““the Audit Commission”” means the Audi...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c604-5 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 171B: Page 32, line 10, leave out from beginning to ““subsection”” in line 11 a...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c602 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response but not for what was going on behind it. In no way has he take...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c602 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may confirm to the noble Baroness that I have received the correspondence and just this da...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c602-3 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I hope that he and his officials will understand more clearly ...
Earl Ferrers | 684 c603 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that the Audit Commission would look at this in a joined-up way. What did he mean ...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c601 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 146: Page 107, line 1, leave out paragraph (a). The noble Baroness said: Thes...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c609 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for speaking to the amendments, but ultimately we cannot commend...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c609 (Link to this contribution) As I made clear, this is a probing amendment to meet the requirements of the all-party group, to whi...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c608 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 173: Page 32, line 13, after ““person”” insert ““aged 18 years or over”” The ...
Earl of Erroll | 684 c608-9 (Link to this contribution) When I saw the amendment I wondered what its purpose was since a lot of the relevant damage is done ...
Lord Geddes | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 176 is a joint amendment.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c609-10 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 173A: Page 32, line 25, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 33 an...
Earl of Erroll | 684 c607 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have had a certain amount of e-mails and discussions about these clauses. In general I t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c607-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have heard what both noble Earls have had to say on this subject. The noble Earl, Lord N...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c605-7 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the Committee and at the invitation of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I shall speak ...
Lord Geddes | 684 c611 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 178, I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to, I will not be...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c611-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 178: Page 33, leave out line 24. The noble Earl said: This subsection was int...
Earl of Erroll | 684 c613-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to Amendment No. 178ZA in this group. To be honest, Amendment No. 178, deleting t...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c614 (Link to this contribution) We agree with this amendment. As I understand it, under paragraph (b) a software developer will need...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c615-6 (Link to this contribution) I listened with interest to the noble Earls, Lord Northesk and Lord Erroll, as I always do when they...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c616 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply and I thank the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and the noble Baroness,...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has failed to perceive that we are on Amendment No. 176, which is in my...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution) The embarrassment is mine, and I apologise fulsomely to the Committee and to the noble Earl. I do ha...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 176: Page 33, line 6, at end insert- ““( ) a reference to impairing, preventin...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c620-2 (Link to this contribution) It is the case that those developing this area of criminal law have had to work hard in the past dec...
Lord Hylton | 684 c620 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the intention behind the amendments because they would tighten up the law, which would ben...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c617-20 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 179: After Clause 42, insert the following new clause- ““ENCRYPTED DATA AND IN...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c617 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 178A to 178C: Page 33, line 39, at end insert- ““( ) The amendments made by ...
Earl of Erroll | 684 c616-7 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 178ZA: Page 33, line 24, leave out ““likel...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c622-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 185A: Page 36, line 12, at end insert- ““( ) Nothing in this section shall aut...
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 684 c622 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 182: After Clause 43, insert the following...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c640-1 (Link to this contribution) I say straight away that the Government share the feeling of frustration, if not irritation, that th...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c641-2 (Link to this contribution) I can answer that very simply. As I tried to establish, there is a conflation of two issues. The fir...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 684 c641 (Link to this contribution) If, as my noble friend says, there is currently an equivalence of test, why all the fuss about ratif...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c641 (Link to this contribution) I think that it can to the following extent. A process has to be gone through in the United States i...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c641 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. Is she suggesting that the view of an American j...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution) If all is as the Minister described, can she explain why Irish Americans are opposing ratification?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution) I cannot answer the noble Lord on the issue of Irish-Americans, but I can tell the Committee that th...
Lord Tebbit | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Baroness can help me because, as she knows, I am not a lawyer and I do not und...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will know that we have been successful in extraditing many people from the United Sta...
Viscount Tenby | 684 c633-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak briefly and in general terms to support the amendment to which I have added my name. ...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c629-33 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches have objected to the extradition arrangements with the USA ever since the text o...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 684 c635-6 (Link to this contribution) There appears to bea widespread sense of injustice throughout thisCommittee and in the country as a ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 684 c636 (Link to this contribution) Like my noble friend Lord Goodhart, I had the privilege of learning much of my law at a great Americ...
Lord Rees-Mogg | 684 c636-7 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment on grounds raised by the Prime Minister in the other place last week but whi...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 684 c637-9 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendments. I have followed the issue of UK/US extradition policy with s...
Lord Monson | 684 c639-40 (Link to this contribution) In the article in the Financial Times yesterday mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson—I say this...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c625 (Link to this contribution) After that comprehensive reply, it would be churlish to do other than say that I will make sure that...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c623-4 (Link to this contribution) I will go carefully over my speaking note. I can see that the amendment has three possible consequen...
Lord Dholakia | 684 c623 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment for the reasons identified by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. It would be h...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 684 c629 (Link to this contribution) Only from Section 84(7)? Thank you. I am very grateful.
Lord Kingsland | 684 c629 (Link to this contribution) From the designation. Amendment No. 186 reverses the effect of the order of 16 December 2003. That i...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 684 c629 (Link to this contribution) I am going to press the noble Lord, because this is an important point. We understand that there is ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c625-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 186: After Clause 46, insert the following new clause- ““DESIGNATION OF PART 2...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 684 c629 (Link to this contribution) If I can, I wish to speak before the Motion is moved. This is simply for clarification, because I do...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c659 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House be resumed. In moving the Motion I propose that the House should again ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c658-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 188 to 190: Page 134, line 5, leave out ““19A”””” and insert ““19B”””” Pag...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c659 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 191A: Page 142, line 5, at end insert- ““14A (1) Section 84 (case where person...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c656 (Link to this contribution) If what was said in paragraph 66 of the judgment of the Court of Appeal was not intended as a reflec...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c649 (Link to this contribution) I had hoped thatthe noble Lord had understood what I have said: that the United States does not have...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c650-1 (Link to this contribution) It is plain from the recent Court of Appeal decision that it has the full benefits of the treaty. It...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c653 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 187: Page 134, line 3, at end insert- ““(j) forum.””;”” The noble Lord said: ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c653-5 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments were briefly alluded to in our debate on the previous group, but the argume...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c655 (Link to this contribution) I spoke to these amendments at an earlier point and there is only one additional matter to which I w...
Lord Tebbit | 684 c655 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if my noble friend could help me on a point. I have heard several references this evening t...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c655 (Link to this contribution) I share the conclusion reached by my noble friend. I understood them to be described as the NatWest ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c656 (Link to this contribution) Since it was I who referred to the Enron Three, for his erudition I invite the noble Lord to look at...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c656 (Link to this contribution) I agree. I am simply seeking to clarify why I referred to them as the Enron Three. I did so because ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c656 (Link to this contribution) I am not aware, at this stage of the judgment, that the court is entitled to take any view about gui...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c648-9 (Link to this contribution) What I am saying quite clearly is that, first, I understand the strength of feeling that has been ex...
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne | 684 c647-8 (Link to this contribution) If the current situation is so entirely satisfactory, as the Minister seems to be saying, why on ear...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c648 (Link to this contribution) I have, but I am very happy to clarify it. One of the main benefits that we will get from the treaty...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c646 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Lord says, but the United States of America is the United States of America. I...
Lord Rees-Mogg | 684 c646 (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister not agree that the standards of justice and the standards of prisons, which are v...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c649 (Link to this contribution) I can be relatively—indeed, exceedingly—telegraphic. At the beginning of her response to this debate...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c649 (Link to this contribution) That is what the decision of Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice Ouseley appears to make crystal clear....
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c643 (Link to this contribution) I shall not give way just now. I had reached the second myth and there are still several to go. I am...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 684 c643 (Link to this contribution) I may be able to save the noble Baroness from the risk of misleading the Committee. She referred us ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c643 (Link to this contribution) I tried to correct myself. I said ““evidence”” and then ““information””, correcting myself on the se...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c643-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree. Prior to reading the decision of Lord Justice Laws andMr Justice Ouseley, I would ha...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 684 c643 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that information is not evidence and that there is no basic evidence put bef...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c644-6 (Link to this contribution) The reason is that there has been an unfortunate conflation between the failure to ratify the treaty...
Lord Richard | 684 c644 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend says that there is broad parity and broad reciprocity. What, then, is she going to t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that all that has to be done now is for an American investigator, through a ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c602 (Link to this contribution) The amendment would remove the requirement for the Audit Commission and the Auditor General for Wale...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that our amendments cover the same ground, and as I advised the Committee we had...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c622 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that sympathetic reply and I think that progress is being made her...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c647 (Link to this contribution) It is the reality of where we are. The United States has a system that is part federal and part stat...
Lord Geddes | 684 c609 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 173A, I must advise the Committee that if it or Amendment No. 174 is ag...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c622 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [A...
Lord Christopher | 684 c649 (Link to this contribution) Would my noble friend be kind enough to confirm that I have heard and interrupted her correctly: tha...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution) That is not right. Section 71 sets out clearly that the evidence would have to be sufficient to just...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 684 c634-5 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 186, particularly in the context of the journey that the Minister is about t...
Baroness Henig | 684 c600-1 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will understand when I say that I am a little disappointed by some of what he has sa...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 684 c648 (Link to this contribution) May I ask the noble Baroness a question that may be in the minds of many Members of the Committee, e...
Subjects
Access Children Criminal proceedings Crime Courts Computers Cameras Audit Commission Arrest warrants Evidence ICT Extradition Inspections Documents Functions Internet International law Police Powers Prisoners Pornography Police authorities Reciprocal arrangements Sentencing Treaties Sexual offences Trials Right of search USA Computer viruses Cryptography Hacking
Legislation
Police and Justice Bill 2005-06
Link
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