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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 23 January 2007, in the House of Lords.

Legal Services Bill [HL]

Legal Services Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage third day. Clauses 32 to 69 agreed to. Schedules 7 to 9 agreed to. Clause 70 under consideration. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
688 c1004-66 
Session
2006-07
Department
Department for Constitutional Affairs
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1010-2 (Link to this contribution) Before I failed to realise that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, had not spoken, I was about to say w...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1010 (Link to this contribution) It will be even more interesting. I join all noble Lords who have congratulated my noble friend Lor...
Show all contributions (150)
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1012 (Link to this contribution) I am fascinated by some of the Minister’s comments. The procedure of judicial review has arisen—this...
Lord Whitty | 688 c1009-10 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether I should continue this dialogue for much longer, but I did object to the thres...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1010 (Link to this contribution) Surely the noble Lord will concede that it would be unacceptable to use a big stick to thrash an inn...
Lord Whitty | 688 c1010 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord heard me right, he will know that I said ““carry”” a big stick—that is, have sanct...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1010 (Link to this contribution) What an interesting start to our deliberations—
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c1008-9 (Link to this contribution) This is an important point, whether one looks at Amendment No. 52, which we are currently discussing...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1009 (Link to this contribution) With respect, I quite understand what the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is saying. This issue arose with ...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1008 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the probing amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. I acknowledge, as he di...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1005-7 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but I have to refer to it as relevant. I have had a word with the noble Lord. Thank you very mu...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 688 c1005 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that Amendment No. 65 will be taken later.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 688 c1005 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, be so helpful as to say whether that means that Amen...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1005 (Link to this contribution) I did not quite hear what the noble Baroness said, but if I go wrong I would be grateful if she woul...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1004-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend, I beg to move that the House do now again resolv...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1005 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52: 52: Clause 32 , page 16, line 30, at end insert ““; and a direction given ...
Lord Whitty | 688 c1016 (Link to this contribution) I indicated earlier that I would oppose Amendment No. 56; what has been said has not changed my mind...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1016 (Link to this contribution) After a cursory glance at the clause, I am inclined to agree with my noble friend about the defects ...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1014-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 56: 56: After Clause 34 , insert the following new Clause— ““Appeal against pu...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1015 (Link to this contribution) We support the amendment in principle, but it is encapsulated in my Amendment No. 65, which we shall...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1012-3 (Link to this contribution) I take the view that public bodies operate in a way means that there is a right of judicial review. ...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1013-4 (Link to this contribution) I sincerely thank all noble Lords who have spoken. One has to accept that it is inevitable that some...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1016 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway has drawn my attention to Amendment No. 79, which I have wi...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1016 (Link to this contribution) I meant Clause 79, which says that the Secretary of State can set up anyone he likes as a body to he...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1015 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the point of my noble friend Lord Kingsland. I do not want to repeat the comments that ...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1016 (Link to this contribution) On a matter of principle, I draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, to Amendment No. 7...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1019-20 (Link to this contribution) I suppose that one could begin with the definition of ““public censure””. If one took the extreme vi...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1020 (Link to this contribution) I am totally lost. I am sure that it is my fault. I have been trying to understand. We are not going...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1019 (Link to this contribution) With respect, the question should be how the board would arrive at its decisions. In other words, we...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1019 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to approach the problem from a slightly different angle. Publicly censuring a statutory ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1018 (Link to this contribution) My ambition would be that it never need use that power. It would be foolish for me to try to determi...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1018-9 (Link to this contribution) In some respects, I understand the noble Baroness’s hesitations, but we are left with a situation wh...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1018 (Link to this contribution) That is right: it is to do with ABS. You cannot totally isolate this. By the time you have an obliga...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1016-7 (Link to this contribution) Lying behind a lot of concerns expressed about the lack of appeal procedures in the Legal Services B...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1017 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to deal with the points that have been raised. My noble friend Lord Whitty raised a fund...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1020-1 (Link to this contribution) It is never my intention to confuse the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, and I apologise unrese...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1021 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister is writing to my noble friend will she reflect on the underlying concern behind ma...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1022-3 (Link to this contribution) I read out exactly what the noble and learned Lord read out in Clause 3(3). I agree with him that th...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c1022 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is so charming with her metaphors but it is interesting that she picks up the met...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1023-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 61: 61: Clause 36, page 17, line 38, at end insert— ““( ) that the approved re...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1025-6 (Link to this contribution) I hope the Minister will reflect on where we are. The Joint Select Committee, as my noble friend has...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1025 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. Although I shall listen with great interest to the views of the Minister, t...
Lord Whitty | 688 c1026 (Link to this contribution) The longer I stay in this Chamber, the more my anxiety mounts about where the opposition parties and...
Lord Whitty | 688 c1027-8 (Link to this contribution) I think I am reflecting the views of consumers of legal services—not all of them, not necessarily th...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1027 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way and I will certainly not rise to his fly by seeking t...
Lord Whitty | 688 c1026-7 (Link to this contribution) I was simply reflecting on the fact that consumers can usually expect some degree of support within ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1031 (Link to this contribution) I always like to be encouraged to develop my thinking. The point that comes to my mind is that ““las...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1030 (Link to this contribution) That is an encouraging response from the Minister, but would she not agree that the power to impose ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1028-30 (Link to this contribution) I feel compelled to join this conversation. It is important to describe the power and the approach w...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c1028 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to speak, but I find it very difficult not to say something. The noble Lord, Lord Wh...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1031 (Link to this contribution) I do not know what the noble and learned Lord refers to.
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c1031 (Link to this contribution) I cannot remember the circumstances in which the Legal Services Ombudsman issued a financial penalty...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c1031 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to an occasion on which that happened. It may be that I should...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1032-3 (Link to this contribution) Although I am disappointed at the noble Baroness’s unwillingness to expunge the fine provisions from...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c1032 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right. I now recall that it did relate to complaints procedures. We have recognise...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1034 (Link to this contribution) The regulator and the supervisory regulator may both believe that they are acting in the public inte...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1033 (Link to this contribution) I, too, am grateful to the Minister for her response to the last amendment. However, I return to Cla...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1031 (Link to this contribution) My recollection is that a fine of £250,000 was imposed by the Legal Services Ombudsman on the Law So...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1034 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord. I was saying sotto voce that I was reading the report every other night. I t...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1034-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 63: 63: Clause 38 , page 19, line 24, at end insert— ““( ) that the imposition...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1035 (Link to this contribution) We support these amendments. It is clear that Clause 38(7) is an ouster clause. I agree with the nob...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1038 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord will say what he intended to say about my noble friend Lord Whitty when h...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1037-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 65: 65: After Clause 38, insert the following new Clause— ““Approved regulator...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1037 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I understand that, if what she has just told the Committee...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1037 (Link to this contribution) My notes say that the answer to that question is yes. If I discover in the next minute that that is ...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1037 (Link to this contribution) All I really want to know is that, in the system under Clause 38 which is constrained by a 42-day li...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1037 (Link to this contribution) I was saying that because this is about financial penalties, we have ensured that the procedure cove...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1036-7 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. I am, of course, aware that, where there is ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1035-6 (Link to this contribution) We have already had some discussion about the rationale behind the approach we have taken, so I will...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1049 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has raised an interesting point. The difficulty with the amendments is that, in a sen...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1049 (Link to this contribution) Nevertheless, I hope that the Minister can understand the natural sense of unfairness experienced by...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1050-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 106B: 106B: Clause 53 , page 30, line 2, at end insert— ““(2A) An external reg...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1049-50 (Link to this contribution) I am cautiously encouraged by what the Minister said. She might be disappointed to hear that, becaus...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1051 (Link to this contribution) Under Clause 53 we have provisions to ensure that approved regulators can take steps to prevent conf...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1047 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for that offer from the Minister. Clause 48 agreed to. Clause 49 agreed to. Cl...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1047 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 106: 106: Clause 50, page 27, line 18, at end insert— ““( ) Practising fee inc...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1046 (Link to this contribution) I take this opportunity to acknowledge with gratitude the reply to the earlier amendment dealing wit...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1047-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord was succinct in speaking to Amendment No. 106. I understand that setting out a financ...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1044 (Link to this contribution) My question was by no means idle. In the course of the Minister’s response—I think to my noble frien...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for patiently responding to the many interventions made in the co...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1045 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord quite reasonably says that my words become irrelevant in the context of the setting u...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1045 (Link to this contribution) My recollection is that I had made the point that when the Legal Services Board is established it wi...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1045 (Link to this contribution) I am not disputing that I will see whether that is reflected. I was, however, making a particular po...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1044 (Link to this contribution) If we returned with an amendment that exactly reflected what the Minister thought underlies policy s...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1044 (Link to this contribution) My position is that, yesterday and today, I agreed to look at whether we have a correct explanation,...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1043 (Link to this contribution) Clearly the Minister has not read enough Edgar Allan Poe.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1043-4 (Link to this contribution) Not for a long time. I have been too busy reading the Select Committee reports to have time to read ...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1044 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 105B has three arms. The first requires the board to respect the principle that primar...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1044 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I am not sure about the imminent risk of significant dam...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1042 (Link to this contribution) I was not seeking to require the Legal Services Board to look at my words for how it should operate ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1042 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her words. However, I am slightly concerned by her analogy with the Financi...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1043 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords. I do not think any eyebrows were raised; I just did not know what ““in...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1043 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply to the debate in which I did not participate. Some...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1041-2 (Link to this contribution) That presupposes that the noble Lord is in charge of whether there is a cliff for me. I am not sure ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1041 (Link to this contribution) No cliff. Thank you so much. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland is right—
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1040 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for giving me an opportunity to say a little more a...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1039-40 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 105B: 105B: Clause 48, page 26, line 23, at end insert— ““( ) Any statement of...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1040 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my noble friend because although the Minister has given us a great deal of comfortable ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1039 (Link to this contribution) In the light of that response, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdraw...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1039 (Link to this contribution) I was not suggesting that the noble Lord was anything other than concerned. I merely pointed out tha...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1038 (Link to this contribution) That is the case. When we get to the section on alternative structures, we will be arguing from the ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1051-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not know off the top of my head. Perhaps I may write to the noble Duke and explain it. Because ...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1052 (Link to this contribution) The Minister could not have been more helpful in her response. In those circumstances, I beg leave t...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1052 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 107: 107: Clause 62 , page 34, line 24, at end insert— ““and, in either case, ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1052 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will not be surprised that I do not seek to disagree with the principle here at all. ...
Duke of Montrose | 688 c1051 (Link to this contribution) I realise that this section of the Bill does not apply to Scotland, but what would happen if a Scott...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1058-60 (Link to this contribution) An interesting debate has brought together noble Lords across the Committee. It is important that I ...
Lord Whitty | 688 c1058 (Link to this contribution) I will make clear later my strong support in principle for alternative business structures. Some of ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1057-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has made such an important contribution to this debate. He h...
Lord Woolf | 688 c1056-7 (Link to this contribution) I have listened with fascination to the Committee’s deliberations today. I thought that I knew every...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1054 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister. I apologise for failing to give her specific notice. I thought t...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1055-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108: 108: Clause 70 , page 40, line 32, at end insert— ““( ) Without prejudice...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1053 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will not be surprised to hear me speak on Clause 68. I pointed out at Second Reading th...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1053-4 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to try to address those two points. It is always a joy to respond to the noble Lord. I so...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1064 (Link to this contribution) Apart from listening to the Minister, has this Commissioner the slightest knowledge of the provision...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1064 (Link to this contribution) I suspect not, and I was not trying to suggest that she had. I was referring to the issue that the n...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1064 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for responding to my probing amendment in such detail. Perh...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution) I am nervous about the description of the incremental approach that the noble Lord has just given. I...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1063 (Link to this contribution) Why does the Minister have to go to Europe, where there is a different legal system and profession a...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1063-4 (Link to this contribution) Somebody in Europe! I am surprised at the noble Lord, considering the position that the Liberal Demo...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1065 (Link to this contribution) My problem is that we cannot stipulate that there will be five, 10 or whatever, not least because th...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1065-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness anticipated my next question when she asked, ““How do we know what is happening?”...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1066 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. Let me be clear about what I have committed myself to do—the crumbs...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 688 c1066 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving the Motion, may I suggest that the Committee s...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1066 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has been extremely fair. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amen...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1060-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is quite right to ask again about the regulatory objectives...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1060 (Link to this contribution) The regulatory objectives are set out in the Bill. We have discussed them before.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1062-3 (Link to this contribution) If we look at how the Bill is constructed, we can see how the Law Society, for example, would become...
Lord Woolf | 688 c1063 (Link to this contribution) I hope the Minister will forgive me if I press her on one additional aspect that I am not sure has b...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1061-2 (Link to this contribution) There would not be a devastating effect on access to justice. That is the point. I will use my words...
Duke of Montrose | 688 c1062 (Link to this contribution) After what the Minister has just told the Committee, would she expect that every person applying for...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1063 (Link to this contribution) We have to be careful about the word ““protected””. One critical and important aspect of this measur...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1021-2 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to deal with the phrases that I use in trying to express myself—perhaps not as a lawyer. ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1041 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may explain that it is the sunset uplands we are seeking the Minister to move gently along...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1052-3 (Link to this contribution) I would of course prefer to have it in the Bill, as I indicated in my opening remarks, but I am deli...
Lord Whitty | 688 c1009 (Link to this contribution) I say to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, that I was not going to oppose this amendment, at...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1007-8 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway not only for his tremendously hard wo...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c1026 (Link to this contribution) It is wrong for the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to seek to make this a party political matter. I am not...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 688 c1032 (Link to this contribution) I mentioned disciplinary procedures a moment ago. I am wrong about that—it is the complaints procedu...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1031-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord and I am sure that he is right. I had hoped that I had finished the ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1046-7 (Link to this contribution) I see the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, nodding in support; I save him getting up to do so. The purpo...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 688 c1056 (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford indicated the deep concerns which we on t...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1018 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her response to these two amendments. The noble Lord, L...
Lord Kingsland | 688 c1023 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has been absolutely clear about these amendments: she is against them for a variety of ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 688 c1031 (Link to this contribution) I think that I said that the Legal Services Commissioners have the power to fine—I did not say that ...
Subjects
Complaints Consumers Appeals Business Competition Legal profession Fees and charges Fines Powers Regulation Rural areas Legal Services Board
Legislation
Legal Services Bill (HL) 2006-07
Link
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