Parliamentary Search

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 11 June 2007, in the House of Lords.

Pensions Bill

Pensions Bill. Lords Committee stage third day. Schedule 6 agreed to. Clauses 20, 21 and 22 agreed to. Clause 23 agreed to as amended. Clauses 24 and 25 agreed to. Schedule 7 agreed to as amended. Clause 26 agreed to. Clause 27 negatived on question. Clause 29 and 30 agreed to. Bill reported with amendments. (HL Bill 77 2006-07).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
692 c1507-82 
Session
2006-07
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Pensions Bill. As amended in Committee.
Monday, 11 June 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1550-1 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to interrupt proceedings, but it is hardly surprising that Clause 20 has taken so...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1551 (Link to this contribution) I presume that the noble Lord was talking to Clause 20 stand part. We have gone through a whole seri...
Show all contributions (134)
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1551 (Link to this contribution) The Minister misses the point. The reason that I ask whether we can see the advice before it is form...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1552 (Link to this contribution) The fact that I am an unpaid cynic does not alter the fact that my request has been made and I expec...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1551-2 (Link to this contribution) I cannot believe that someone charged with being the chair or chief executive of the authority, bein...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1544-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for tabling AmendmentNo. 118 and to my noble frien...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1545 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. At the end, he said that he did not want the Bill to compromise consideration ...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1547-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 123: 123: Clause 20, page 24, line 3, leave out subsection (7) The noble Baro...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1547 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. In her keenness not to sound like a broken record, she mi...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1546-7 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to welcome the discussion around these amendments and I thank the noble Baroness for tabl...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1545-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 119: 119: Clause 20, page 23, line 43, at end insert— ““( ) In discharging its...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1550 (Link to this contribution) That is an interpretation of the phrase ““will have regard to””. If I am incorrect on that, I am hap...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1550 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply, but I cannot actually say that she picked up the points about t...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1548-50 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that one of the main points of parliamentary scrutiny around the work of the authorit...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 692 c1544 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 122A and 122B stand in my name. The references to supporting best practice in terms ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1541-2 (Link to this contribution) Subject to the general point on not needing to be specific in the Bill at this stage, the noble Baro...
Lord Blackwell | 692 c1541 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may anticipate the general answer that the Minister will give, in that guidance is already...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1542 (Link to this contribution) If my officials have a detailed answer to that before I sit down, I am sure that a note will wend it...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1542 (Link to this contribution) I asked the Minister to comment on the ABI’s estimate that 90 per cent of pension savings would be s...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1543 (Link to this contribution) I believe that it will. I understand that it is likely to happen this week—I see a nod from the Box....
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1542 (Link to this contribution) I know that the Minister is not teasing us, but if that conclusion is not imminent, it would be very...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1543 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. I was disappointed that he felt unable to share even the smalle...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1536 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but I specifically asked whether I could say something when I had heard the Minister’s re...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1536 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the Government Whip, if I may address her as such on this occasion, would agre...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1536 (Link to this contribution) In that case, I shall make my points on the next amendment because they are fairly general. However,...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1536 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Committee will agree that we have a number of amendments on a similar theme. Perh...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1536-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 114: 114: Clause 20, page 23, line 27, at end insert— ““( ) In carrying out it...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1537 (Link to this contribution) I speak to these amendments and the series of amendments the noble Baroness is moving about the obje...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1537-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, pre-empted the thrust of my reply but I shall give it anyway. We are...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1538-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. I know that he will say the same thing on all the amendments; I...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1539-40 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 116: 116: Clause 20, page 23, line 43, at end insert— ““( ) In discharging its...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1507-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 89: 89: Schedule 6, page 58, line 14, after ““a”” insert ““direct or indirect”...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1507 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1510 (Link to this contribution) To reflect a moment on what the noble Baroness said, I did not say thatI imagined that conflicts of ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1508-10 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her thoughtful and helpful contribution, which has allowed this short...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1510 (Link to this contribution) My intention was to be clear that conflicts of interest will be recorded. Where members of committee...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1516-7 (Link to this contribution) As explained, Amendments Nos. 106 and 107 would amend Schedule 6, requiring the delivery authority t...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1516 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches are sympathetic to noble Baroness’s intention that there should be regular repor...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1514-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 106: 106: Schedule 6, page 65, line 34, after ““must”” insert ““show separatel...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1514 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the question ofthe delivery authority may give rise to slightly different issues. Neve...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1513 (Link to this contribution) I am on a roll. For now, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withd...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1519-20 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled an amendment in this group. We support the principle behind the amendment of the noble...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1517-8 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that I will respond to the latter point; it depends on how amenable the Minister is a...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1518-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 111: 111: Clause 20, page 23, line 27, at end insert— ““(2A) In discharging it...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1511 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can be equally brief. In all cases involved with public appointments, we or, later, th...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1511-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 95: 95: Schedule 6, page 59, line 13, leave out paragraph (d) and insert— ““(d...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1511 (Link to this contribution) I am more than happy with that and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, with...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1511 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 94: 94: Schedule 6, page 59, line 3, at end insert— ““( ) The term of an appoi...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1510 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [A...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1512 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for moving the amendment. When I read the original wording and then the a...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1512 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1513 (Link to this contribution) Again, I thank the noble Baroness for making a series of intriguing points.As she may already be awa...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1532-3 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and I think the noble Lord, Lo...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 692 c1527 (Link to this contribution) We strongly support the amendments, as does the Equal Opportunities Commission. I fear that I shall ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1528-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lady Hollis for not withdrawing the amendment before we had a chance to disc...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c1529 (Link to this contribution) I think that my noble friend would be slightly shocked if I were to try to push it further at this s...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1529-31 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113: 113: Clause 20, page 23, line 27, at end insert— ““( ) In carrying out it...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1531 (Link to this contribution) I shall make a general point about this and subsequent amendments, following the noble Baroness. The...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1531 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I can anyway. In general, I am quite sympathetic to what the Minister will say—as the noble Bar...
Lord Turner of Ecchinswell | 692 c1531-2 (Link to this contribution) I am sympathetic to the aim of the amendment, which is to ensure thatthe concerns about levelling do...
Lord Blackwell | 692 c1532 (Link to this contribution) This is a very important amendment, but first I should remind the Committee of the interests that I ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c1524-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112: 112: Clause 20, page 23, line 27, at end insert— ““( ) The Authority shal...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1523-4 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the Minister says. I was trying to give a reasonably balanced and constructive response,...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1521 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with Amendment No. 111 because, as we all know, it will be at the po...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 692 c1520 (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading I drew attention to briefing I had received from, I think, Scottish Widows, which ...
Lord Blackwell | 692 c1520-1 (Link to this contribution) I support the issue raised by both these amendments on the advice scheme. It is a key part of the pr...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1523 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that thoughtful reply. As he stresses, this is work in progress. The issue ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1521-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on the amendment. It has given us the opportunity to discuss...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1533-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply and other noble Lords who participated in the debate. I think th...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c1534 (Link to this contribution) I listened to the noble Baroness’s remarks with interest and respect. Why does she think that that d...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1535 (Link to this contribution) We shall have to see whether the new chairman and members of the authority are martians or earthling...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1535 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, I believe this is my chance to say something.
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1535 (Link to this contribution) We are comparing chalk and cheese. The stakeholder schemes were simply not designed in the same way....
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1535 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness accept that irrespective of whether the amendment were written in the Bill i...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1534 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, whom I am sure had great hopes for the stakeholder scheme, has to accept that it...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c1534-5 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely accept the noble Baroness’s figures—83 per cent of stakeholder schemes were shell schem...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1534 (Link to this contribution) Because stakeholders simply did not happen.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c1534 (Link to this contribution) The schemes were set up and employers, had they wished, could have used those schemes as an alternat...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1582 (Link to this contribution) I should have responded earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. I thank him, his colleagues an...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1582 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentsNos. 167 and 168: 167: Clause 28, page 26, line 38, leave out ““other thansection ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1580 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 166: 166: Schedule 7, page 71, line 30, at end insert— ““Part 6A Removal of an...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1579-80 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentsNos. 145 to 164: 145: Schedule 7, page 69, line 17, column 2, leave out ““Section”...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1580 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 166, which was part of the annuity debate we had on Wednesday. On Question, amendmen...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1580 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me. Could the noble Lord just remind me which amendment he is moving?
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c1578 (Link to this contribution) I am delightedthat my noble friend feels that she can withdrawthe amendment because TPAS has receive...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1578-9 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 144: 144: Clause 23, page 25, line 18, at end insert— ““(3) Before the Secretar...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 692 c1578 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 23 [Orders and regul...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1581 (Link to this contribution) Although I quite understand why these amendments are necessary, due to recent welcome developments i...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1573 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that noble Lords do not want to buy the exact car that I have in mind. None the less, the...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1571-3 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate. Perhaps I should start by wishing my noble friend Lord Howarth ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1576-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for raising the issue of pensions tax relief, which is alway...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1575-6 (Link to this contribution) We have already debated the unfortunate effect that the current system of pension credit is having o...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1573-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139: 139: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— ““Report on tax re...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1577 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply and for making my case when he pointed out that the existing stat...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 692 c1578 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 143: 143: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— ““Pensions Advisor...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1577 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, decides what to do with the amendment, and I assume that he w...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1577 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that it has the noble Lord’s support.
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1563 (Link to this contribution) I start from the point that I am in total agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott—and indeed w...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1563 (Link to this contribution) It wants to see the Government take the bull by the horns and reform public sector pensions, but we ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c1563 (Link to this contribution) I am now completely baffled. What does the noble Lord’s party now wish to see happen, if anything?
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1565-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Turner, for his support and for his excellent analysis of the problem. ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1564-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank everyone who participated in the debate. Like the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, I do not be...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1566 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 138: 138: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— ““Independent Pens...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 692 c1566-9 (Link to this contribution) I will speak to Amendment No. 140. All the amendments in the group point in the same direction. In h...
Lord Fowler | 692 c1569-70 (Link to this contribution) I strongly agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has just said. I speak to Amendment No. 142...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c1571 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Fowler likened this group of three amendments to three cars. He described the f...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1557 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response, which I shall read carefully in Hansard. I beg leave to with...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1557-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 137: 137: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— ““Independent Publ...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1555-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 131: 131: Clause 22, page 24, line 17, after ““(3)”” insert ““or (3A)”” The n...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1556-7 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it would help if I start by explaining why we have included Clause 22, before tackling the s...
Lord Fowler | 692 c1562-3 (Link to this contribution) That makes the position worse rather than better. I was hoping that the noble Lord was going to say ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1562 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if I did not make it clear in my introduction, but I am not proposing to move that amendm...
Lord Fowler | 692 c1562 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely—or at least substantially—with what the noble Lord, Lord Turner, said. I do not ent...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 692 c1561-2 (Link to this contribution) I want only to make a very brief intervention. It seems to me that there would be difficulty with th...
Lord Turner of Ecchinswell | 692 c1558-61 (Link to this contribution) This amendment is designed to encourage the Government to take an issue seriously and, indeed, to en...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1555 (Link to this contribution) That is unfair. This Government introduced the provision in the first place. We did not have a Freed...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1555 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply, which is perhaps not entirely surprising. Of course, the Freedo...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1555 (Link to this contribution) The Ministry of Justice, as I believe we now call it, is carefully trying to find ways of making the...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1553-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for raising this matter. The Freedom of Information Act provides for tran...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1552-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 130: 130: After Clause 21, insert the following new Clause— ““Freedom of Infor...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 692 c1574-5 (Link to this contribution) It would be very helpful to have a report such as the noble Lord has proposed, because it might help...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1543-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 118: 118: Clause 20, page 23, line 43, at end insert— ““( ) In discharging its...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1510 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her reply, although, I must say, it did not address the points that I made....
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1550 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that; I found it quite extraordinary. When others have checked that, we wil...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1510 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness will find that she said ““imagine””.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1514 (Link to this contribution) The amendments focus on the authority’s ability to form committees and the important related issues ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1523 (Link to this contribution) There is clearly an important and integral role for the delivery authority in developing the informa...
Baroness Greengross | 692 c1521 (Link to this contribution) I also support the amendment. I declare an interest as president of the PPI and a trustee of the Res...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1580-1 (Link to this contribution) This clause provides that any Order in Council made for Northern Ireland at paragraph 1(1) of the Sc...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c1540-1 (Link to this contribution) What is the Minister’s latest estimate of when the Government will propose the level of cap? On thes...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1513 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 103: 103: Schedule 6, page 62, line 13, leave out from ““contain”” to end of l...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c1581-2 (Link to this contribution) The answer to the noble Lord’s question about what would happen if the Assembly did not continue is ...
Baroness Noakes | 692 c1512-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 96: 96: Schedule 6, page 59, line 26, leave out sub-paragraph (2) The noble B...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Data protection Costs Annuities Allowances Civil service Advisory services Conflict of interests Women Equality Finance Families Freedom of information ICT Information Discrimination Misconduct Private sector NHS Low incomes Northern Ireland Pay Public appointments Workplace pensions Pensions Public sector Public participation Standards Teachers Small businesses Tax allowances Pensions Commission Gender impact assessment Personal Accounts Delivery Authority Pensions Advisory Service National employment savings trust scheme
Legislation
Pensions Bill 2006-07
Contains statistics
Yes
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk