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Debate on bill on Monday, 17 December 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Jane Kennedy. The answering member was David Gauke.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

National Insurance Contributions Bill. Second reading debate. Agreed to on division (291 to 161). Programme motion on proceedings in Committee, on Report and Third reading and other proceedings. Agreed to on question.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
469 c637-72 
Session
2007-08
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Paul Rowen | 469 c649 (Link to this contribution) I totally agree. As I explained, although the Government are committed to that proposal, our difficu...
Paul Rowen | 469 c648-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will obviously support some of our tax proposals, and I look forward to seeing hi...
Show all contributions (106)
Kelvin Hopkins | 469 c649 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentions the proportion of average earnings received by pensioners, but does he n...
Paul Rowen | 469 c647-8 (Link to this contribution) It is easy to say that, but I am not sure whether having such a straightforward system right at the ...
Paul Rowen | 469 c647 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Gentleman said, he has intervened on me right at the beginning of my speech. I int...
Paul Rowen | 469 c647 (Link to this contribution) As the Financial Secretary said, the Bill has two purposes, and it is part of a package introduced i...
Lord Redwood | 469 c647 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way so early in his speech. I would like to probe him...
David Gauke | 469 c646-7 (Link to this contribution) We would look carefully at such a proposal, but we have other concerns with the Bill. We shall certa...
David Gauke | 469 c646 (Link to this contribution) We support the principle of flat-rating as part of a package. The Government broke up that package b...
Rob Marris | 469 c646 (Link to this contribution) If the Bill receives its Second Reading—which is quite likely, given the mathematics of the House—it...
David Gauke | 469 c645 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, as he brings me to the issue of pensions. He is absolutely ri...
David Gauke | 469 c645 (Link to this contribution) May I finish my point? The Government argue—I suspect that this might be the point that the Excheque...
David Gauke | 469 c645 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend says, we cannot go home early. I am sorry to disappoint hon. Members. This is not...
Lord Redwood | 469 c645 (Link to this contribution) To reinforce my hon. Friend's point that this is a tax increase and not a pension contribution, will...
Charles Walker | 469 c655-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall crack on, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am not quite aware of the hon. Gentleman's figures. In my co...
Speaker | 469 c655 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the hon. Gentleman is tempted to go down that road, I should say that the Christmas sp...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c652 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. Gentleman moves too far away from the question of SERPS and represents history in a ...
Oliver Heald | 469 c652-4 (Link to this contribution) Of course, we can trade histories. All that I would say to the right hon. Lady is that the original ...
Oliver Heald | 469 c651-2 (Link to this contribution) May I start in a Christmassy and benevolent way by paying tribute to the civil servants in the Natio...
Charles Walker | 469 c655 (Link to this contribution) I should be delighted if it went towards helping the hon. Gentleman's constituents. I am referring t...
Mike Weir | 469 c655 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has touched on the subject of spending in Scotland, which of course gives more to...
Kelvin Hopkins | 469 c655 (Link to this contribution) My constituency and the hon. Gentleman's are not too far apart. I believe that in Hertfordshire heal...
Steve Webb | 469 c650 (Link to this contribution) In her intervention, the Exchequer Secretary quoted the figure of £11 billion, but as we all know, e...
Paul Rowen | 469 c650 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who knows a lot more about the issue than I do. It is a sad fact th...
Rob Marris | 469 c650 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be aware that in the past 10 years, the average pensioner's income—I appreci...
Paul Rowen | 469 c651 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows full well that 40 per cent. of all eligible pensioners do not claim pension...
Lord Redwood | 469 c649 (Link to this contribution) Why does the hon. Gentleman think that someone on £40,000 a year is so rich that they can afford to ...
Paul Rowen | 469 c649 (Link to this contribution) I understand that, but this is about saving for a pension. I accept that the rebate will be smaller—...
Oliver Heald | 469 c649 (Link to this contribution) Is not the whole point of this measure that those earning between £37,000 and £43,000 will have to p...
Paul Rowen | 469 c649-50 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman is forgetting that this is part of a package. It is not my job to de...
Angela Eagle | 469 c650 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been saying that pensioner poverty is worse and that pensioners are worse off...
Paul Rowen | 469 c650 (Link to this contribution) I would make two observations. First, we do not believe and have never believed that pension credit,...
Justine Greening | 469 c658 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says it is small, but Mike Warburton of Grant Thornton has said that some people may se...
Justine Greening | 469 c659-62 (Link to this contribution) Listening to the hon. Gentleman's remarks, one would not think that the current Government had been ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 469 c659 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for giving way—and I apologise for intervening so much, but she is making poin...
Justine Greening | 469 c659 (Link to this contribution) Members always know they are on to a winner in this House when other Members start going back in tim...
Justine Greening | 469 c658-9 (Link to this contribution) That is a correct understanding. Obviously, the national insurance changes are not taken through the...
Philip Dunne | 469 c658 (Link to this contribution) Did I hear my hon. Friend correctly? Did she indicate that one of the clauses in the Bill will allow...
Justine Greening | 469 c658 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is right to highlight the fact that the PPI spotted that this course restores the orig...
Angela Eagle | 469 c658 (Link to this contribution) I am listening to the hon. Lady citing august bodies. Will she also recognise the comment of the Pen...
Angela Eagle | 469 c662 (Link to this contribution) I want to begin by wishing all Members who have given the Chamber priority on this, the period appro...
Paul Rowen | 469 c657 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady tell us what the Conservative proposals are? We have been very clear about our pr...
Justine Greening | 469 c656-7 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, our party supported the broad pension reforms brought forward by the Go...
Kelvin Hopkins | 469 c657 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for giving way once more. She suggested that the Liberal Democrats were not sa...
Justine Greening | 469 c657 (Link to this contribution) This is not really a debate about pensions, but it is interesting that the hon. Gentleman did not an...
Justine Greening | 469 c656 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to be able to wind up the debate on behalf of the Opposition. It seems that it is a...
Kelvin Hopkins | 469 c656 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. She has been fairly critical of the Government's inching in wh...
Justine Greening | 469 c656 (Link to this contribution) Other than by intervention, and I think I can see another one coming.
Justine Greening | 469 c657 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman obviously thinks it is. It is interesting to see the collegiate working between t...
Angela Eagle | 469 c665 (Link to this contribution) I am not so certain that hypothecation of income in that way is exactly as progressive as the hon. G...
Steve Webb | 469 c665 (Link to this contribution) The Minister was given advance notice about an hour ago of this question and I hope that she can now...
Paul Rowen | 469 c665 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to make an offer to the Minister across the Floor of the House. Will she give us a guaran...
Angela Eagle | 469 c667 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is obviously right to call me to order on that point. I must stop internalising these...
Angela Eagle | 469 c665-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should realise that this is the first Government ever to cut the link between age...
Angela Eagle | 469 c668 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. I suspect that the Opposition Members will have to explain to their constit...
Jim Sheridan | 469 c668 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will be aware of the importance of national insurance contributions to our public ser...
Angela Eagle | 469 c667-8 (Link to this contribution) Not only does my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary feel insulted because he does not think that ...
Angela Eagle | 469 c662 (Link to this contribution) I was going to get on to the hon. Gentleman soon enough, but I am happy to give way to him now.
Angela Eagle | 469 c662 (Link to this contribution) Although the Bill is a technical measure, it is a key part of the process that puts into effect the ...
Oliver Heald | 469 c662 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Lady point to the clause in the Bill that she is referring to?
Angela Eagle | 469 c662-3 (Link to this contribution) The IFS also said at the time of the Budget that the"““income tax and NI package has been cleverly d...
David Gauke | 469 c662 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady is talking about the context of the 2007 Budget, she will remember from when we wer...
Angela Eagle | 469 c663-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, whom I admire and respect, should have a close look at what the distributional effec...
Kelvin Hopkins | 469 c663 (Link to this contribution) I hope my hon. Friend will forgive me for feeling slightly uncomfortable about having a consensus wi...
Angela Eagle | 469 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) The arithmetic in the Red Book took account of it. We knew that there was an issue about increasing ...
Justine Greening | 469 c664 (Link to this contribution) In that case, why was there no mention of this proposal in the Red Book?
David Gauke | 469 c641 (Link to this contribution) The Financial Secretary is arguing that nobody loses out.
Jane Kennedy | 469 c642 (Link to this contribution) We will be able to discuss the detail in Committee. Members from Opposition parties, and perhaps som...
David Gauke | 469 c641 (Link to this contribution) Right. Well, I want to make it clear that the HMRC impact assessment refers to the 2.1 million peopl...
Angela Eagle | 469 c643 (Link to this contribution) Do I take it from what the hon. Gentleman has said that the consensus on pension reform is now broke...
David Gauke | 469 c642-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to speak on this Bill, although it will not catch the headlines as some do. Today t...
David Gauke | 469 c643 (Link to this contribution) Later in my speech I shall address in greater detail the particular issue with pensions, but I shoul...
Rob Marris | 469 c643 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for showing his usual generosity and politeness. Is the Conserva...
Steve Webb | 469 c644 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to bring the hon. Gentleman back to the Bill, but may I clarify? His position is that the...
Oliver Heald | 469 c639 (Link to this contribution) When the right hon. Lady talks about an anomalous benefit, does she not mean that when people paid t...
Paul Rowen | 469 c640 (Link to this contribution) That statement would be acceptable if the Government were using the extra £2 billion that will be ra...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c640 (Link to this contribution) No. The truth is that we had a projection of how the reforms would work out, and in order to keep to...
Oliver Heald | 469 c640 (Link to this contribution) My point is that by bringing the accruals point forward three years to 2009, the Chancellor is takin...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c639 (Link to this contribution) There was a high degree of consensus about the pensions reforms that were introduced as a result of ...
Rob Marris | 469 c641 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is being extremely patient. Is not the political import of the total package th...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c640 (Link to this contribution) It is true that we are bringing forward the state second pension upper accruals point, which raises ...
Lord Redwood | 469 c640-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, again. Can she remind the House how much worse off somebody will be w...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c641 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend's point and thank him for making it. It is true that the package of chan...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c638 (Link to this contribution) I had wondered if everyone was asleep. I give way to the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwoo...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c637-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. This short Bill has two purposes. First, it...
Steve Webb | 469 c639 (Link to this contribution) I shall take that in the spirit in which it was intended. The Minister said at the beginning that t...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c639 (Link to this contribution) We do not have any plans to make that change, but we can of course debate the point. Income tax and ...
Lord Redwood | 469 c638 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. Will she remind the House how much extra tax somebody on £45,000 a ye...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c638 (Link to this contribution) There will be some losers as a result of the personal tax package, but the overall net effect of the...
Oliver Heald | 469 c638 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for giving way. Is she seriously saying that £1.5 billion does ...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c638 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right: increasing the upper earnings limit for national insurance by £75 a wee...
Kelvin Hopkins | 469 c647 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the hon. Gentleman's comment about simplifying the national insurance system. Would it not...
Charles Walker | 469 c654-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a delight to be called with another three hours ahead of us. So often in the Chamber I fear th...
Rob Marris | 469 c667 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the phrase ““stealth taxes”” is completely meaningless? We in the Hou...
Kelvin Hopkins | 469 c648 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned middle and higher income earners. The Bill will not do very much to hig...
Angela Eagle | 469 c645 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman answer the question that I asked before? The changes restore the original na...
Steve Webb | 469 c659 (Link to this contribution) Earlier the hon. Lady raised an important issue of principle, saying she objected to the raising of ...
David Gauke | 469 c643-4 (Link to this contribution) We believe in addressing poverty. Let me address the issue that we face. The distinction between th...
Jane Kennedy | 469 c641 (Link to this contribution) There is a range of factors that will affect people at that point. If the right hon. Gentleman will ...
Subjects
Income tax National insurance Personal income Poverty National insurance contributions State retirement pensions Tax rates and bands
Legislation
National Insurance Contributions Bill 2007-08
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk