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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 7 February 2008, in the House of Lords.

Child Maintenance and Other Payments Bill

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
698 c615-84GC 
Session
2007-08
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2008-0485
Wednesday, 20 February 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2008-0484
Wednesday, 20 February 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c654GC (Link to this contribution) I thought that the Minister was going say the late 1800s.
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c652GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. As the Minister has not answered all the points and he will have to write to me,...
Show all contributions (150)
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c682GC (Link to this contribution) For clarity, let me help the noble Lord. On the transfer of arrears, we are looking at the potential...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c644-5GC (Link to this contribution) Does not my noble friend agree that one difficulty with the CSA, unlike other fields where debt is o...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c638-40GC (Link to this contribution) This is an important group of amendments, all of which relate in some way to the operation of the co...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c647GC (Link to this contribution) Having ascertained what I needed to know, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leav...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c654GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that item is in this group.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c656GC (Link to this contribution) Does that not help rather than hinder the case?
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c651GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to go into any more detail at this point, but surely with the lump sum deductions, as ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c652GC (Link to this contribution) There is a seven-day period somewhere in all of this but I think not where the noble Lord has identi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c653GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112: 112: Clause 21, page 9, leave out lines 35 to 37 On Question, amendment ...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 698 c653GC (Link to this contribution) I should point out that if Amendment No. 112 is agreed to I shall not be able to call Amendment No. ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c659GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 150: 150: Clause 22, page 14, line 10, after ““directed;”” insert— ““( ) if th...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 698 c659GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 157 is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 158, which is in the na...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c659GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 156: 156: Clause 22, page 14, line 27, at end insert ““; and ( ) if the order ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c656GC (Link to this contribution) I shall not prolong the discussion. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, wit...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c658GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 136: 136: Clause 22, page 13, line 2, after ““the”” insert ““deposit-taker or”...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c658GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 134: 134: Clause 22, page 12, leave out lines 32 to 45 and insert— ““(1) The C...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 698 c657GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 134 is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 135 for reasons for pre...
Lord Goodlad | 698 c665-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 178: 178: Clause 25, page 18, line 16, leave out ““make”” and insert ““apply t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c670-1GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed, I will come on to that. It will also be emphasised that when an appeal has been filed the or...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 698 c662GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 167 is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 168 for reasons of pre-...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c661-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 159 to 164: 159: Clause 22, page 15, leave out lines 37 to 39 160: Clause ...
Lord Addington | 698 c664GC (Link to this contribution) The words ““sledgehammer”” and ““nut”” come to mind. I think that our concern was justified and that...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c676-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 184: 184: Clause 30, page 32, line 37, after ““may,”” insert ““with the writte...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c674GC (Link to this contribution) Ah. In that case, least said, soonest mended.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c644GC (Link to this contribution) It will certainly generally be the case; we want to use the whole panoply of enforcement action avai...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c640GC (Link to this contribution) This will be the subject of a discrete amendment a little later today.
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c647GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. I think that I am satisfied, because I was trying to discover whether there had ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c647GC (Link to this contribution) No. We are about to discuss it; it is on deduction orders.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c645GC (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that I had covered the point, but I shall look at the record on this large grouping and ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c645GC (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my noble friend. There was a brief interlude of naming and shaming on the webs...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c636-7GC (Link to this contribution) I have three or four amendments in my name and that of my noble friend dealing with Clauses 26 to 28...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c634GC (Link to this contribution) They will jump the intervening scheme, in other words.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c631-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, is absolutely right. The Minister is obviously right in saying th...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c633GC (Link to this contribution) Who could say that the noble Lord’s 20-minute introduction does not matter?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c627-31GC (Link to this contribution) I turn to the amendments and I shall pick up some of the broader points that were raised. I welcome ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c626GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to hear it. I must say that I am surprised, because that does not come through in my re...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c627GC (Link to this contribution) It does not have to be an opt-in, then. There is a presumption in favour of staying in the statutory...
Lord Addington | 698 c627GC (Link to this contribution) I have listened to most of the debate. Even with the amount of expertise in this Room, there is some...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c627GC (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I can give a very clear assurance on that. People have a choice about whether they are i...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c623GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. The question was whether that would automatically force the first case into the voluntary syste...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c624GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord is right. If I have understood my noble friend correctly, in a new case ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c624GC (Link to this contribution) Surely in the case predicated by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, there are two parts. First, there ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c624GC (Link to this contribution) The presumption is that each of the parents involved has a choice. In the first case, if there is a ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c622GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may put two brief questions to the Minister. The first relates to transition. Will he help...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c620-2GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 103 to 107, to which I put my name. They are in the centre of the t...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c623GC (Link to this contribution) It depends on whether the limit of £40 applies only to those who remain within the CMEC system or to...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c653-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 114: 114: Clause 21, page 9, line 40, leave out ““the account”” and insert ““a...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c654GC (Link to this contribution) It is not in the right place. I had better stop at this point. I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c654GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may start with Amendment No. 135, which seeks not to exclude deduction orders from being u...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c656GC (Link to this contribution) I seem to remember that there are vast amounts of legislation about money-laundering.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c656GC (Link to this contribution) I shall reflect on the drafting, but I have tried to do battle with parliamentary counsel in the pas...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c653GC (Link to this contribution) Heaven forbid. The noble Lord might have a sample of my handwriting and the letters might be recipro...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 698 c658GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 139 is agreed to, I shall not be able to call the following two amendments in the n...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c660-1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 157: 157: Clause 22, page 14, line 28, leave out from beginning to end of line...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c670GC (Link to this contribution) That might very well be so. We are not talking about this being the only sanction available to CMEC ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c669-70GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, for tabling the amendment; it was anticipated. It wou...
Lord Goodlad | 698 c672GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the thoroughness with which he has addressed this issue both in his communi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c664-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 175: 175: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— ““Orders preventin...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c672-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 182: 182: Clause 29, page 32, line 26, at end insert— ““(c) make provision for...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c662GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 167: 167: Clause 22, page 16, leave out lines 33 to 37 On Question, amendment...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c662GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 166: 166: Clause 22, page 16, line 31, leave out ““magistrates’ court (or, in ...
Lord Addington | 698 c662GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 174: 174: Clause 22, page 17, line 12, at end insert— ““32I Power to freeze as...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 698 c662GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 172 is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 173 for reasons of pre-...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c662-4GC (Link to this contribution) In speaking to Amendment No. 174, I shall speak also to government Amendments Nos. 175 to 177, 215 a...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c677-8GC (Link to this contribution) A few minutes ago, I was quite rightly prevented from speaking to my Amendment No. 186, which I hope...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c678-82GC (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments enables us to discuss debt management powers. I hope that Members of the Co...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c675-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, and his response affords some reassurance. I do not think that a huge...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c674GC (Link to this contribution) If I can help the noble Lord, between the last time we were in Committee and today the amendments ha...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c674GC (Link to this contribution) If I can help, the group we are dealing with contains Amendments Nos. 182, 183 and 212. Amendment No...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c674GC (Link to this contribution) Sorry, I have got myself into a tangle. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, has just moved Amendment No. ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c673GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments consider in the broadest terms the power of the commission to write off arrears pay...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c640GC (Link to this contribution) We are dealing with Amendments Nos. 179 and 180, which are still in this group, as I understand it. ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c646-7GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments give us the opportunity to discuss the appeals route for deduction from earnings orde...
Lord Geddes | 698 c636GC (Link to this contribution) I have to advise the Committee to delete the word ““paragraphs”” and insert ““sections”” in the seco...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c634GC (Link to this contribution) We might as well all go home. The debate has demonstrated that it is obviously essential that this n...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c631GC (Link to this contribution) Is that desirable? Is it what the Minister wants? I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c631GC (Link to this contribution) That takes us back to a debate that we had a couple of days ago. Let us be clear that we want parent...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c632-3GC (Link to this contribution) It is inevitable that the more links there are, the more complexity there is. However, to return to ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c633GC (Link to this contribution) No, I did not ask that; I asked how many had not been transferred. I think that it was the noble Lor...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c627GC (Link to this contribution) I shall reflect on that. However, if affirmative regulations give us an opportunity for further wide...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c627GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed. If any noble Lord who has participated in this debate feels that, on reflection, it would be...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c626-7GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know about the noble Baroness, but I believe that I have the point. However, if, having rea...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c627GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my noble friend will give me an assurance about a parent who currently is in the statutory s...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c625GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to take up the time of the Committee. Let us say that the non-resident parent is supporti...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c624-5GC (Link to this contribution) Let me have another go at this. Let us start with a situation where the non-resident parent has two ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c623GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has been very helpful. Perhaps he could enlighten us a little more. We have family A...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c615-20GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 102: 102: Clause 18, page 8, line 15, at end insert— ““( ) During the process ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c622GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has been assiduous in her attendance in Committee, but I think that she had a sma...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c684GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday 20 February at 3.45 pm....
Viscount Simon | 698 c684GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Wednesday 20 February at 3.45 pm.
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c655-6GC (Link to this contribution) Two points arise from what the Minister has said. First, not all the amendments are in my name. Amen...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c654-5GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment could be used to open loopholes or to encourage non-compliant parents to lodge their m...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c651GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to respond to as many of those points as I can. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, raise...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c649-50GC (Link to this contribution) This is a gigantic group of amendments, covering releases offered from bank accounts which may be ei...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c650-1GC (Link to this contribution) For the avoidance of doubt, I am wholly in agreement with the general thrust of all the amendments. ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c651-2GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think anything proposed here would preclude more than one go at a lump sum. But there is a ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c659GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 146: 146: Clause 22, page 13, line 39, after ““the”” insert ““deposit-taker or...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c659GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 148: 148: Clause 22, page 14, line 9, after first ““the”” insert ““deposit-tak...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c659GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 152 to 154: 152: Clause 22, page 14, line 13, after ““specified”” insert— ““...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c658GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139: 139: Clause 22, page 13, line 5, leave out from ““32E”” to end of line 17...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c658-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 142 to 144: 142: Clause 22, page 13, line 28, after ““the”” insert ““deposit...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c656-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 120 to 125: 120: Clause 21, page 10, line 20, leave out ““account-holder in ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c657GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 127 to 133: 127: Clause 21, page 11, line 32, leave out from ““which”” to ““...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c656GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 117 to 118: 117: Clause 21, page 10, line 11, at end insert— ““(3A) An order...
Lord Addington | 698 c656GC (Link to this contribution) Most of the amendments in this group have been dealt with in what the Government have said previousl...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c658GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 138: 138: Clause 22, page 13, line 2, at end insert— ““( ) if made by virtue o...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c665GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 176 and 177: 176: Clause 23, page 17, line 14, leave out ““32H”” and insert ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c668GC (Link to this contribution) There was no reference, in either of the interesting and valid points made, to proposed Section 39B(...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c666-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Goodlad for tabling this amendment, to which I and my noble fr...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c662GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 172: 172: Clause 22, page 16, line 45, leave out from ““of”” to end of line 47...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c662GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 170 to 171: 170: Clause 22, page 16, line 38, leave out ““or (as the case ma...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c682GC (Link to this contribution) It is not my amendment to withdraw; I was just speaking to it.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c683-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am now about to make a 35-minute speech in reply. I am sure we are all grateful to the Minister. H...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c678GC (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend the Minister agree that perhaps a third of the debt is uncollectible, as with l...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c682GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that ““comforted”” is yet the right word. I will have to consider this really quite ca...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c674-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for these amendments, which relate to appeal rights in respec...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c673GC (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord just remind us to which amendment he is speaking?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c640GC (Link to this contribution) We have a separate amendment on that, but we are touching on driving licences here. There is a discr...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c641-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am just about to cover that. The Child Support Agency, or the commission in the future, will make ...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 698 c644GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister is working very hard, and we are all grateful for that, but the logic of the noble Baro...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c645GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, I have pleasure in begging leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, with...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c646GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108: 108: Clause 19, page 8, line 27, leave out ““magistrates’ court (or, in S...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c647-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 111: 111: Clause 21, page 9, line 34, leave out ““a current”” and insert ““an”...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c645GC (Link to this contribution) In withdrawing the amendment, I certainly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, that there are...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c634-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 103: 103: After Clause 18, insert the following new Clause— ““Entitlement of p...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c637-8GC (Link to this contribution) I dissociate myself from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. If someone is in regular empl...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c634GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed they will. I hope that that has dealt with each of the points raised. The noble Lord, Lord K...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c633GC (Link to this contribution) I did not say that; I said that that particular question, which was wrapped up in a whole series of ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c633-4GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord’s question was how many cases have not been transferred from the first scheme to t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 698 c631GC (Link to this contribution) While the Minister has been speaking, I have been looking at paragraph 6(1) of Schedule 5, which sta...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c626GC (Link to this contribution) It may not have come through because some of the intricacies of how this will work in practice are s...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c627GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend asks whether one technically has to make a claim to be in the new system, which I th...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c625GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry. The non-resident parent is paying 20 per cent for two children in the statutory system a...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c625GC (Link to this contribution) The 25 per cent calculation would not affect the situation at all ab initio if a voluntary arrangeme...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c626GC (Link to this contribution) Let me try again. The 25 per cent net figure would apply to the new calculation. That amount, whatev...
Lord Geddes | 698 c615GC (Link to this contribution) I will not waste the Committee’s time by talking about Divisions, as they are singularly unlikely to...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 698 c623GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting start to our proceedings today. I shall deal first with the two questio...
Subjects
Child support Children Debts Bank services Deductions Absent parents Custodial treatment Arrears Child Support Agency ICT Identity cards Interest charges Maintenance Personal income Parents Payments Passports Overseas residence Travel Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission Driving licences Administrative liability orders
Legislation
Child Maintenance and Other Payments Bill 2006-07 to 2007-08
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk