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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Thursday, 10 July 2008, in the House of Lords.

Pensions Bill

Pensions Bill. Lords Committee stage fifth day. Clauses 67-68, 70-75, 78-83, 85 and 87-88 agreed to. Clauses 69, 76-77 and 86 agreed to as amended. New Clause (Amendment 113QA) debated and agreed to on question. Clause 84 negatived. New Clauses (118ZE and 118ZG) agreed to on question.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
703 c900-66 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 703 c962-3 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments, although we will need to ask some technical questions. I have two simple p...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c958-61 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 124: 124: After Clause 88, insert the following new Clause— ““Conditional inde...
Show all contributions (105)
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c961-2 (Link to this contribution) Conditional indexation as proposed by the Association of Consulting Actuaries is an interesting idea...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c956 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that that means that if the clause remains in the Bill and is established ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c956 (Link to this contribution) The import of these clauses is a regulation-making power to ensure that, through the necessary discu...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c957-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 118A to 121: 118A: Clause 86, page 41, line 39, after ““between”” insert ““t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c958 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 123 and 123A: 123: Clause 86, page 42, line 42, at end insert— ““““provider”...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c956-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 118ZE: 118ZE: After Clause 84, insert the following new Clause— ““Persons work...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c957 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 118ZG: 118ZG: After Clause 84, insert the following new Clause— ““Persons in o...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c954-5 (Link to this contribution) I remember that, some 20 years ago, when I was standing where the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is now ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c955 (Link to this contribution) Let me start with share fishermen. The position is that, under the Bill as drafted with Clause 84, t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c955 (Link to this contribution) Will the consultation be finished by Third Reading, which presumably will be at some time before 3 D...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c955-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not have a timeline for when the consultation would be finished, but the process that will be u...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c952 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; I got slightly sidetracked. I listened with a certain amount of incredulity to what the ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c952 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely what this clause is about: it is intended to stop an agency worker falling between...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c952-3 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but when I studied this, which I did quite carefully some weeks ago, I came to the conclusion t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c953-4 (Link to this contribution) In opposing the Question whether Clause 84 shall stand part of the Bill, I shall speak also to Amend...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c950-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 118ZA: 118ZA: Clause 78, page 39, line 32, leave out ““relevant person under s...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c951-2 (Link to this contribution) I have a substantial team to help with my drafting. In responding to Amendment No. 118ZA, I will sp...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c950 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 114 to 118: 114: Clause 77, page 38, line 34, leave out subsection (2) 115...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c949 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister has said, we return to the Welfare Reform and Pensions Act 1999. That was quite a lo...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c949-50 (Link to this contribution) In essence, we considered it inappropriate to have two duties on the same employer. When this scheme...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c949 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but the Government keep saying on the one hand that it is time-limited and then refusing...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c949 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113T: 113T: Clause 76, page 38, line 24, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and ...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c948 (Link to this contribution) I wager that the note says that there is an error in the heading of Schedule 9; we shall see. The Mi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c948 (Link to this contribution) It just seems to me not to be a particularly fruitful exercise to bandy around specific dates. We ha...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c948 (Link to this contribution) The government amendment is positioned under Part 2 of Schedule 9 headed ““Safeguarded Rights””, whi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c948 (Link to this contribution) Quite why the amendments are grouped together is an interesting question. I am not sure how that hap...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c947-8 (Link to this contribution) Clause 75, alongside Section 23 of the Pensions Act 2007, provides for the winding up of the authori...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 703 c914 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments in principle, and declare an interest as vice-chair of the Ethical Trading ...
Lord Joffe | 703 c914 (Link to this contribution) I shall pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, to underline the point made by my nob...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c914-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lord Judd for tabling this set of amendments and for the opportunity to deba...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c918 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Judd, withdraws his ““investment””, to use the Minister’s phrase—I think...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 703 c912-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall add briefly to this debate. This is an extremely important subject and has been put very sed...
Baroness Whitaker | 703 c913 (Link to this contribution) I am very sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but does he not accept that the provisions are intended...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 703 c913-4 (Link to this contribution) I understand that perfectly well; the noble Baroness made that clear in her speech. I understand tha...
Earl of Sandwich | 703 c910-1 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly, as a former board member of Christian Aid and Anti-Slavery International, to support...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c909-10 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 113H is grouped with the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, to whom I listene...
Baroness Whitaker | 703 c912 (Link to this contribution) In warmly supporting Amendments Nos. 122ZDA and 112ZDB, I declare an interest as a member of Friends...
Lord Joffe | 703 c911-2 (Link to this contribution) In supporting both amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Judd, I shall be brief because my noble...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 703 c923 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment, although I had assumed that the authority had this duty anyway—to look aft...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c924 (Link to this contribution) I rather wonder whether the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, regrets the absence of her no...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c922 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112ZH: 112ZH: Clause 69, page 34, line 19, leave out ““corporation’s”” and ins...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 703 c923 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113: 113: Clause 70, page 34, line 23, at end insert ““and the Authority must ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c922 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness’s second point was about the role of the Secretary of State in communicating with...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c922 (Link to this contribution) I will read carefully what the Minister said. I am still in a little fog as to why the trustees cann...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c920-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for tabling this group of amendments because they give me the opportunity...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c922 (Link to this contribution) I am still a little unclear about the treatment of the trustee corporation in this clause compared w...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c919-20 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112ZE: 112ZE: Clause 69, page 34, line 5, leave out ““the Secretary of State o...
Lord Judd | 703 c918-9 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate my noble friend’s considerate and full reply. It was characteristic of his whole approa...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c918 (Link to this contribution) As I have outlined, there will be consultation on the statement of investment principles. Until it i...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 703 c903 (Link to this contribution) Because of the short notice of our debating the Bill today, my noble friend Lord Oakeshott is unable...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c903-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank each Member of the Committee who has spoken. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, that ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c905-6 (Link to this contribution) Surely to goodness, the noble Lord is still thinking of the original operation of the trustees. I wa...
Lord Judd | 703 c906-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112ZDA: 112ZDA: After Clause 66, insert the following new Clause— ““Pension in...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c905 (Link to this contribution) So, according to the Minister, the trustees are to have functions but no principles. These functions...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c905 (Link to this contribution) It is absolutely not right to say that trustees will have no principles. As I explained, the role of...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c938 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with the noble Lord. The proposition is to design a low-cost scheme targeted on low t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c939 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify one point. The noble Baroness suggested that about £50 million will be spent b...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c938-9 (Link to this contribution) It has been an interesting debate and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and the noble Baroness,...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c942 (Link to this contribution) It depends on the circumstances in which that guidance is offered. During my time on the child maint...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c942-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall not take up much of the Committee’s time, but perhaps I may say that the Minister’s response...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c939-40 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113J: 113J: Clause 71, page 35, line 5, after ““directions”” insert ““and guid...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c939 (Link to this contribution) I never suggested that PADA would not account properly for the money that it has spent or that the D...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c942 (Link to this contribution) I am rather unconvinced by the point that guidance should not be put in writing. Perhaps the Ministe...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c940-2 (Link to this contribution) The authority has been established as an independent expert body to advise on, and take forward, imp...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c944-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113QA: 113QA: After Clause 74, insert the following new Clause— ““Executive me...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c944 (Link to this contribution) The Minister read out his speaking note very prettily, but he did not answer a single question that ...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c944 (Link to this contribution) The Bill will allow the authority’s remit to be extended to enable it to undertake the detailed impl...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c943 (Link to this contribution) I have given notice that I wish to debate the question whether Clause 74 stand part of the Bill beca...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c946-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113R: 113R: Clause 75, page 37, line 7, at end insert ““at any time, and must ...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c946 (Link to this contribution) My apologies; I thought that the noble Lord had asked how many executive directors there would be. H...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c946 (Link to this contribution) I did not ask how many executive members there were; I asked how many members there would be, referr...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c946 (Link to this contribution) I am unable to answer any of the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, at this time,...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 703 c946 (Link to this contribution) I add a question or two to the reasonable questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. In m...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c945-6 (Link to this contribution) I must have misheard the Minister, because I thought that he said that Amendment No. 113QA referred ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c926-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113A: 113A: Clause 70, page 34, line 25, after ““in”” insert ““existing”” The...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c928-9 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, responds and decides what to do with his amendment, perhap...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c927-8 (Link to this contribution) Clause 70 goes to the very heart of our ambitions for these reforms. It captures in legislation thos...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c930 (Link to this contribution) That is a crucial point. The noble Lord says that he does not want personal accounts to crowd out; i...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c929-30 (Link to this contribution) In response to the final remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, I am interested in employees wh...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c930 (Link to this contribution) We have had fascinating exchanges on qualifying schemes. There are provisions in the Bill to enable ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c930 (Link to this contribution) No, it means two things. Personal accounts can, and perhaps will, crowd out non-qualifying schemes—t...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c931 (Link to this contribution) The schemes that will fall through the net are those that are less beneficial to employees than pers...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c930 (Link to this contribution) First, they may not want to do that and, secondly, there is the small matter—in fact, it is rather l...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c924-5 (Link to this contribution) I start by saying that I am delighted to see the noble Baroness involved in this, as she has been in...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 703 c925 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, for her support and to the Minister for his kind w...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 703 c933-4 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. It is elegantly worded and has been put in a positive way. I am glad that ...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c931-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113G: 113G: Clause 70, page 34, line 33, at end insert ““and initially based o...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c937 (Link to this contribution) Let me get it straight at the outset that I did not ask the Minister to commit to precise figures, s...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c934-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for moving the amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood,...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c934 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the amendment should be in the Bill, which is why it is important that my nobl...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 703 c937-8 (Link to this contribution) This is all the other way round. I listened to Mr Jones make a compelling case, in which he used the...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c937 (Link to this contribution) The up-to-date estimates can be given when we have done further work on the design of the scheme. If...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c937 (Link to this contribution) I have not asked for final costings. I have asked for up-to-date estimates.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c937 (Link to this contribution) Until the detailed work on the design of the scheme and all that goes with it has been completed, it...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c931 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think that that is right. There may be all sorts of reasons why, even with the tweaking...
Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c900-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112ZD: 112ZD: After Clause 66, insert the following new Clause— ““Principles (...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c900 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c966 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c963-5 (Link to this contribution) The Government have said that we are interested in the concept of risk-sharing, which is why we rece...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c963 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord would be the first to accept that if you go for a level annuity, as opposed to an ind...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c966 (Link to this contribution) Who is saying that? Who are these people? Which streets is the noble Baroness travelling?
Baroness Noakes | 703 c966 (Link to this contribution) The Minister would not expect me to name names because all the people concerned need to deal with th...
Baroness Noakes | 703 c965-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. Given the time, I will not prolong the debate too much. The nob...
Subjects
Crimes against humanity Finance Fees and charges Investment Employment agencies Genocide Index linking Personal savings Low incomes Public appointments Workplace pensions Pensions Migrant workers Temporary employment Shipping War crimes Personal Accounts Delivery Authority National employment savings trust scheme
Legislation
Pensions Bill 2007-08
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk